How can we trust our direct experience?

[James123]

4 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I guess that wouldn't actually make any difference because I would never know?

No. You can. 

   1 hour ago,  DefinitelyNotARobotsaid: 

Would that also apply to the whole "objective/subjective" debacle?

If you look at the situation from higher consciousness level (non duality) there is no subjective or objective reality, you are everything that you see, objective and subjective is you are, however nothing is inside of the body . You are selfless, exist as nothing and everything. Body is robot, you already written its destiny. You exist as nothing. 
If you look at the situation from lower consciousness (human level). There is a subjective And objective reality for you to exist as a ego within your body. You are in control of the body and have a self. You exist as something. 
 
Therefore, duality and non duality is  opposite sides of each other and complete each other. But in both situations you are the awareness itself. You are aware that you are in body now. In no duality, you will be aware as nothing and everything. Because of that, subjective and objective is real and unreal, you are exist and not exist, reality is true or not true, and all is happening same time within you. It is impossible to explain what consciousness is as you can see. Thats why when you realize everything there is nothing to think. Because thoughts are limited and just a word. But you are it, no matter that you do you are it, and cant run away from yourself. You are the body, and you are the thing who created the body. All is you. All is ONE. 

[SoonHei]

@DefinitelyNotARobot even if you know... and you really truly KNOW that you know... what does it really change about anything? is it not just like knowing the population of Kenya?

per Google it was: 51.39 million in 2018.

now what? what does that information do for you?

 

don't waste thy energy by running on the hamster wheel of thought loop. once you resolve it, your mind will get busy with the next one. the mind loves knowing about the other side of the coin and things like that... but if offers nothing really, other than not having to know about it any longer once it is known. creates room for the next desire.

 

keep that energy in and just relax broooooooooooooooo

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

So either one, both and neither?

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

But isn't this just a belief if I believe this without coming to the conclusion myself? That's all that I am trying to do. Come to a conclusion just like everybody else. (eventhough you could say that there is no conclusions to be made) I guess the REAL question I should be asking here is how to surrender?

Of course, you shouldn´t trust anybody here, just do some real practices and see if you can get anywhere that lets you see with a "clear view".

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

Just now, SoonHei said:

keep that energy in and just relax broooooooooooooooo

HAHAH oh man I did it AGAIN! Silly me! 

[James123]

7 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

 

So either one, both and neither?

 

All. You are everything and nothing at the same moment. Thats why consciousness can explain as itself. It is just the way it is and is you. You are the all levels as god. Thats why when everything is happening same time there is no word to describe it, because of that not thinking comes to place to find yourself, which is meditation. 
 

How can you explain with words that you are everything, nothing, exist and not exist, real and not real at the same time. Lol

Edited May 8, 2020 by James123

[The observer]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

But I can't help it!! My mind is just so thirsty for knowledge! I mean I can't blame it, knowledge is pretty damn tasty! 

Might be useful to contemplate what knowledge is and what understanding is. There's something very profound in there.

If you're interested in understanding how things work, you might find your salvation in the ordinary materialistic science. In the biggest picture understanding, you can't know, but you can be. That's one interesting thought that comes to mind, is that maybe you're going about understanding the smaller picture using the biggest lens or vice-versa.

Edited May 8, 2020 by The observer

[SoonHei]

☯️

[Forestluv]

@DefinitelyNotARobot Another angle on this is inquiring “What is trust?”. Observe how the mind creates categories of “trust” and “not trust”. Notice the energetics of desire associated with such categories.

What lies prior to “trust”? In which there is no duality between trust vs. non-trust. This question doesn’t even arise? What is this space like?

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@DefinitelyNotARobot Another angle on this is inquiring “What is trust?”. Observe how the mind creates categories of “trust” and “not trust”. Notice the energetics of desire associated with such categories.

What lies prior to “trust”? In which there is no duality between trust vs. non-trust. This question doesn’t even arise? What is this space like?

I see trust as a form of surrendering. Trusting the universe for example means to surrender to it. If you can't trust something you can't surrender to it. If you trust a person you open up to them. You allow yourself to be vulnerable. If you don't trust them you will try to establish control by closing yourself off. You will resist being vulnerable. You won't be able to surrender. That's at least how I see it. But you can only open yourself up as long as you are closed off. You can only surrender as long as there is something to be surrendered. If there are no boundaries and you simply are, there is nothing to open up/open up to, because you are 100% open. There is nothing to surrender/surrender to, because you have already surrendered everything you had. To trust basically means to have 0 resistance. To be friction less.

Is that somewhat true? 

Edited May 8, 2020 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[Forestluv]

@DefinitelyNotARobot I’ve had similar experiences to what you describe of trust. In particular, within relationships. . . Trust can be a key that opens doors for deeper exploration, discovery and connection. . . . Another image that arises is when I did an Ayahuasca ceremony in Peru. During the first ceremony as I started losing control, there was resistance. There were thoughts of “this whole thing could be a cult. I’m isolated in the mountains of Peru with people I’ve never met and things are getting weird. Perhaps they use this ‘medicine’ to manipulate people. I can’t let go. I need to have my whits about me”. . . As you describe, there was a moment of surrender and letting go - and the essence of trust arose in that moment. 

Trust can be a key to expansion, yet can also be a lock to contraction. Trust can be used by the mind to create self-centered protections. 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Let's say I look at a coin. I can only see one side of the coin at a time. Does that mean that the other side does not exist?

Of course it COULD be that it actually stops existing as long as it's not being observed, and that it starts existing as soon as I turn the coin around, but I couldn't know that

Ahhh...

But here's where you are overlooking the obvious: you in fact DO know that! When you see one side but not the other, literally what is TRUE is that one sides exists while the other does not. The other side only exists in your mind.

This is what's literally true. Take a closer look at it. It's so obvious.

What you see is exactly what there is. That's raw truth while the rest is a story.

Realizing these things requires clinical and objective observation. This is not a thinking exercise. Distinguish observation from thinking.

Sit down and OBSERVE what is literally true.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

What you see is exactly what there is. That's raw truth while the rest is a story.

Hmm that brings up another question: How do we assign relevance to a story? I never had to touch a hot stove to find out that it would burn my hand. It's just something that I have been told by my family. From my point of view, it's nothing but a story! Completely made up! I still wouldn't do it, even though it's just a story and I don't have any direct experience.

Some people claim that tap water isn't good for your spiritual progress, since it's supposed to calcify your third eye. That's just a story. I don't have any experience of a third eye and especially about a third eye that has been calcified by tap water. But what if it's the same thing as with the hot stove? How can I trust the one but not the other? Should I stop drinking tap water because of some story? Can I safely touch the hot stove just because it's some story? Where do I make the line?

Or am I mixing up raw truth with perception?

Edited May 8, 2020 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

yet can also be a lock to contraction.

Can you elaborate what you mean by that?

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Hmm that brings up another question: How do we assign relevance to a story? I never had to touch a hot stove to find out that it would burn my hand. It's just something that I have been told by my family. From my point of view, it's nothing but a story! Completely made up! I still wouldn't do it, even though it's just a story and I don't have any direct experience.

Some people claim that tap water isn't good for your spiritual progress, since it's supposed to calcify your third eye. That's just a story. I don't have any experience of a third eye and especially about a third eye that has been calcified by tap water. But what if it's the same thing as with the hot stove? How can I trust the one but not the other? Should I stop drinking tap water because of some story? Can I safely touch the hot stove just because it's some story? Where do I make the line?

Or am I mixing up raw truth with perception?

In those cases you don't know the truth. For survival purposes you are forced to speculate, assume, project, believe others, and make up stories.

Survival puts you in an existential bind. As long as you want to live as a self you will always have to make stories and hold assumptions about the future.

You see, Truth is so radical because it doesn't care about survival. But you do.

Safety is a concern of the ego-mind. You are asking me questions about what is best for your survival. But Truth doesn't care about that because survival is an illusion. By asking survival questions you drive yourself deeper into the illusion of ego-mind and seperation.

Yet at the same time you must worry about survival otherwise you'd ve dead and awakening would not be possible.

So you're stuck between falsehood and Truth.

This explains why Truth is so rare amoung humans. Truth is not useful in the way a human wants it to be.

The truth in the above examples is simply that you do not know until you try it. Now you matbe object, "But what if it's dangerous to try it?" That's right. Many things are dangerous to try, but that isn't truth's problem, that's the ego's problem.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Truth is so radical because it doesn't care about survival. But you do.

My ego felt that one.

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

Can you elaborate what you mean by that?

The mind often creates constructs of trust relative to it’s own self. Trust can be a way of deciding what is safe or unsafe for one’s self. During that uncomfortable period of not knowing whether I should trust the community during the Aya ceremony, my mind may think “I don’t really know these people. I’m putting myself in a very vulnerable position with people I’ve never met. I need to get out of here”. Or my mind could think “These people are OK. I did a lot of research online and there were great testimonials. I’ve been here for two days meeting people and they seem heart-centered and trustworthy., It’s ok to let go”. Both of these mindsets use trust relative to my own safety and well-being. Another from would be “I trust that whatever arises, arises - and I will be shaped by whatever arises”. This has a different energetic essence, since the trust is not contingent upon my safety and well-being. There is a trust in what arises, regardless of wether it is beneficial or non-beneficial to me. 

Image that the two of us approach a door. We can trust that whatever is on the other side of the door is what is on the other side of the door. We can trust that whatever will happen will happen. We can let go and pass through the doorway. This is one form of trust. Now imagine someone came up to us and said “You shouldn’t pass through the doorway. There is something that will bring you pain”. Then another person says “You should pass through the doorway, there is an insight that will bring you joy”. Who should we trust? . . . This is a different form of trust that relates to personal safety and well-being.

I’ve found both forms of trust to have value and there is wisdom in seeing context-dependent value. 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

@Serotoninluv Reminds me of my first trip ever! It was during a stage of my life in which I was very depressed and very anxious. I did the mushrooms and suddenly all my worries were washed away! I felt complete utter peace. Absolute trust in the universe.

I remember that I was laying on a field of grass watching the sky, when a single thought entered my mind: "Everything is going to be fine." I felt like nothing mattered. Not in a nihilistic, but in a very positive way. No matter what would happen to me, my family, humanity, earth: Everything was going to be fine! Everything would eventually figure itself out. I felt there was nothing to worry about. I knew that this state was eventually going to fizzle out and that I would have to return to my depressing everyday life, but it didn't matter, because I knew that everything would be fine!

17 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

“I trust that whatever arises, arises and I will be shaped by whatever arises”.

This puts it perfectly!

Edited May 8, 2020 by DefinitelyNotARobot

[James123]

 

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@Serotoninluv Reminds me of my first trip ever! It was during a stage of my life in which I was very depressed and very anxious. I did the mushrooms and suddenly all my worries were washed away! I felt complete utter peace. Absolute trust in the universe.

I remember that I was laying on a field of grass watching the sky, when a single thought entered my mind: "Everything is going to be fine." I felt like nothing mattered. Not in a nihilistic, but in a very positive way. No matter what would happen to me, my family, humanity, earth: Everything was going to be fine! Everything would eventually figure itself out. I felt there was nothing to worry. I even knew that this state was eventually going to fizzle out and that I would have to return to my depressing everyday life, but it didn't matter, because I knew that everything would be fine!

This puts it perfectly!

@DefinitelyNotARobot Actually, everything is perfect. Whatever we type in , it will be inevitable perfect. We are just infinite design of consciousness, we are all different then each other in so called life, but it must be, consciousness can not stay at the same shape all the time. That’s why it is infinite. You cant restrict it. 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

11 minutes ago, James123 said:

 

@DefinitelyNotARobot Actually, everything is perfect. Whatever we type in , it will be inevitable perfect. We are just infinite design of consciousness, we are all different then each other in so called life, but it must be, consciousness can not stay at the same shape all the time. That’s why it is infinite. You cant restrict it. 

True! A few months ago I had an epiphany:

This moment is as it is. It is as it is, because that is what it is supposed to be. If it was supposed to be different it would have been different. But it isn't. It can only be as it is. That means that this moment is as good as it can be. But it's also as bad as it can be. It's a perfect equilibrium! And that in itself is absolute perfection!