Virtually

How is it possible that Leo and Ralston disagree?

251 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, Consept said:

In regards to the t

21 minutes ago, Consept said:

 

opic the answer in my opinion is that Leo is not yet enlightened

For all we know that's still a possiblity. But I can safely conclude from it's content that he is, so I guess I can trust him most of the time

 

18 minutes ago, Consept said:

I agree with Ralston that drugs aren't a way to do it either

I'm still open to this possiblity. Experience will tell. I'd have to go deeper in the psychedelic path

24 minutes ago, Consept said:

The process has to be an emptying rather than a collecting, whether that be experiences or knowledge

I have no idea what it is about once you "get to" the point that he is at

 

31 minutes ago, Consept said:

Those are my reasons but also you don't come accross many enlightened teachers that have become enlightened through psyches, maybe that will change in the future,

I agree

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@Virtually I'm not saying you specifically are doing that, I think your question is a fair question. It's just I've seen it happen a lot and sometimes I find myself being critical of him as well and I know it's because he puts himself out there but still I think it's unfair considering he's still on the journey. If he was claiming he's without a doubt enlightened and he should be your only source to get you there then criticise away lol 

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4 minutes ago, Virtually said:

For all we know that's still a possiblity. But I can safely conclude from it's content that he is, so I guess I can trust him most of the time

Again its my opinion that hes not, i could very well be wrong, but also im not sure hes said 'im enlightened' (although you prob wouldnt say that if you were', as far as im aware hes said hes had enlightenment experiences some without but mostly with psyches. He even says in the letter that you cant walk around in a constant state of satori and Ralston says you can and in fact he does. But also there is absolutely nothing wrong with not being enlightened yet, i dont even really like using the word enlightened. Once he does get there he might not even want to teach anymore. 

Your question only makes sense from the perspective that Leo is fully realised, you may have a confirmation bias around this, once you accept hes not the letter makes complete sense as hes still on a journey and is asking someone who is much further in that journey. If you notice Leo had a lot of ideas about what the end point was, but thats it they are just ideas, Ralston has that direct experience and sits within it so he is able to see what Leo is missing. 

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Posted (edited)

@Virtually Good find! After reading that dialogue, I'm reminded of what I've read Jed McKenna say. That he thinks there's a difference between mysticism and enlightenment. From Jed's point of view, mystical experiences are simply to be having a good dream. It's still within the realm of duality. You're still in plato's cave. When one's goal is to wake up from the dream all together. I get a feeling that Peter Ralston might fall into a similar camp of framing. 

Jed frames enlightenment in a relatively binary manner, give or take a bit of time from when the "first step" is taken. However. Once enlightened, you are enlightened. Your work is done. And that sort of binary manner is the same manner in which him or Peter dismiss "subjective states" as irrelevant to enlightenment as those states fade but this thing called enlightenment is supposedly permanent. 

My problem with Jed's point of view (Not Peter, I just noticed a similar energy/vibe between the two of them) is best expressed by the koan "if you meet the buddha on the road kill him". Jed even talks about that koan. Funny that. 

Edited by lmfao

 

 

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5-MeO-DMT is not a subjective state. 5-MeO-DMT goes beyond traditional enlightenment to levels of awakening that no ordinary human is capable of. Awakening has many degrees and omniscience is possible.

Yes, Peter and I have some important disagreements.

Keep in mind that the people who do Peter's workshops and retreats... I would not consider a single one of them truly awake. Neither is his apprentice -- who I'm good friends with. It's all good stuff, but it's not even 1% close to the awakenings I've experienced.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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It's frustrating being unable to reconcile these differences in a satisfactory way. Two teachers who have played pivotal roles disagrees so heavily. I do see that as a play of mind though, not really the authentic Self. 

It seems to me that 5-MeO literally dissolves the entire ego structure, mind, and survival concerns thus allows one to observe reality without any filter at all. Within such a state, the awakening potential seems massive as one is now in more direct contact with reality as it is without the mind interpretations. I've never tried 5-MeO though. This dynamic is what I've experienced with mushrooms and LSD, although sometimes these less powerful psychedelics tend to not remove the mind completely, but change the function of the mind. I see new ways mind can manifest rather than having the mind removed, this leaves me with a lack of clarity that I hear others speak of with 5-MeO. 

It's interesting that Peter mentions that he walks around in a stabilized Satori and that it is not a passing state. 

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5 minutes ago, Consilience said:

stabilized Satori

The question is, to what degree?

5-MeO-DMT can give you a such a satori that you will not even be able to walk around.

Just because something is stable and functional doesn't make it the highest.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The question is, to what degree?

5-MeO-DMT can give you a such a satori that you will not even be able to walk around.

Just because something is stable and functional doesn't make it the highest.

I see this possibility, but according to him this satori is beyond scales, states, or levels. To be quite honest though I have no clue what Peter considers a state. Not sure how he can't see the distinction between the "state" of being enlightened and the "state" of not being enlightened. It feels like a tautology. Idk.  

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There is no escaping states of consciousness. Consciousness is always in some state, whether you are enlightened or not, or even if you are dead.

So saying something is "a state" is silly, because EVERYTHING is a state. Calling a thing a state doesn't say anything.

Satori is a state. Which is why psychedelics can induce satori. How long it lasts is irrelevant. Anyone can easily test that psychedelics induce satori and awakening. This is foolish to argue about. Test it. All my claims are empirical and verifiable.

But it is also good that you guys are confused and don't know who to believe. That forces you to test both Peter and me and do the work to verify what is true. Now you are forced to really investigate this matter and think deeply about it. Perhaps both of us are wrong and you will find even some higher truth.

Disagreement between advanced teachers is one of the best things for a student. It forces you to ask how such a thing is possible. If enlightenment was so simple, how come there is so much disagreement??? Hmmmm...... could that be a clue?


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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@Nak Khid Peter Raltson is talking about bottom or final or just the truth, which is you feel that there is nothing Within the body, you are nothing, but everything is you and exist as nothing. You walk on yourself, breath yourself, eat yourself, words are even you, everything is you but as nothing. Thats the reason why you are not here and nowhere to be. If you are not in the body where can you be? You are not here. You realize or become it when the experiencer and experience becomes one. All is one and one is all. You have to have direct experience, because words cant describe it. How can words, me, you and walls can be same? But it is all you as nothing. Because, you can feel the body, BUT YOU ARE NOT INSIDE. How can you feel? Body or ego is a tool for non duality to feel duality now.   

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1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Satori is a state. Which is why psychedelics can induce satori. How long it lasts is irrelevant. Anyone can easily test that psychedelics induce satori and awakening. This is foolish to argue about. Test it. All my claims are empirical and verifiable.

 

Satori is a Japanese Buddhist term for awakening.   You not being a trained Buddhist or under the observation of a Buddhist who has experienced satori, how do we know what you or anybody else who has experienced 5 Meo  while having a profound experience are having the same experience as satori?   

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20 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

how do we know what you or anybody else who has experienced 5 Meo  while having a profound experience are having the same experience as satori? 

If you take enough 5-MeO-DMT you will get infinite satori. Satori with no bottom. Deeper than every Zen master who has ever lived combined.

Satori just means God-realization. But there are many degrees of God-realization.

You can read Zen books like Three Pillars of Zen to get a sense of how words like satori or kensho are used by Zen masters. You will also find that Zen masters have various levels of satori. For example, I don't doubt that Shinzen Young has some degree of satori, but he don't understand Infinity/God to my satisfaction.

It's easy to get a mild satori. It's much harder to gain complete God-realization and the omniscience that comes with it.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If you take enough 5-MeO-DMT you will get infinite satori. Satori with no bottom. Deeper than every Zen master who has ever lived combined.

 

How would you , not having been trained in Zen, know that the  5-MeO-DMT experience, while intense, is the same type of experience that Zen practitioners call satori?

Edited by Nak Khid

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8 minutes ago, Nak Khid said:

How would you , not having been trained in Zen, know that the  5-MeO-DMT experience while intense is the same type of experience that Zen practitioners calls satori?

Infinite Consciousness knows a few things ;)

If you were infinitely conscious, you could telepathically talk to every Zen master who ever lived -- since you created them.


You are God. You are Love. You are Infinity. You are Leo.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's easy to get a mild satori. It's much harder to gain complete God-realization and the omniscience that comes with it.

Is it the reason why after eating 10 gr shrooms, the next day, i know the knowledges that i have never heard before (I understood i am the god and creator,  purpose of life, ego, god, duality and non duality in one night)? Because, felt like that night i lived millions of years and went even before the big bang. However, the breakthroughs with meditations comes with in the moment, does not include much feelings, and  makes it very clear the experiences of psychedelics. Experiencing non duality through meditation made me speechless. It feels like meditation can bring us state to non duality (all is one, one is all and no feelings whatsoever), but psychedelics mixes everything together such as, knowledge, god, evil, life, duality, non duality and love. 

Edited by James123

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Posted (edited)

@Leo Gura why does other masters reject drugs? Is it cause they think they did a lot of work to attain satori and consumig a drug is kind of easy and riduicile years of work they done.

  

Edited by Harikrishnan

I will be waiting here, For your silence to break, For your soul to shake,              For your love to wake! Rumi

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32 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Infinite Consciousness knows a few things ;)

If you were infinitely conscious, you could telepathically talk to every Zen master who ever lived -- since you created them.

How much detail can you learn about someone through telepathy?

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31 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Infinite Consciousness knows a few things ;)

If you were infinitely conscious, you could telepathically talk to every Zen master who ever lived -- since you created them.

Since neither of us has the ability to telepathically talk to every Zen master who ever lived your remark is hypothetical

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