Could learning game turn you into a people pleaser with low self-esteem?

[Hardkill]

Hey guys, I’ve been thinking about something. If trying to convince people to see you as being good enough for something social, sexual, and/or romantic is self-demeaning, especially if you try to change the mind of the person who rejected you before, then wouldn’t that mean that trying to change yourself to try to become a more attractive person bad for your self-esteem? I mean if you’re trying to learn how to have better game or better social skills and seduction with people, including women then wouldn’t you end up becoming a people pleaser who is trying so hard to prove to others that you are worthy or cool enough to have friendship, sex, and/or love?

Edited January 28, 2020 by Hardkill

[Gili Trawangan]

Game is scaffolding. Where you want to end up is a place from which you are no longer 'trying'. You just do you, and some people are drawn to that.

But as you are learning, definitely, it's people pleasing, whether you see it or not. Though for some people this people pleasing is necessary, it's training wheels.

[Forestluv]

@Hardkill This is a question of genuine and ingenuine. If someone attempts to attract another through being ingenuine, there is a price to pay. 

[Leo Gura]

There are right and wrong ways to learn game.

If you're doing good game, your goal is to develop authenticity and inner strength. You're not trying to please the girl at all. If you go in trying to please the girl, that's bad game, and she will smell it and reject you. With good game you're not being fake to trick her into liking you, you're working on yourself as a many to burn off all your fear and weakness so that when she's talking to you, you actually are a highly attractive, strong, valuable man. And then she falls in love. She's not falling in love with a fake or a people-pleaser. If anything, game will make you icy and detached. You will stop caring what people think of you. And then your game will shoot through the roof because women find that so attractive.

In the end, after your entire gaming journey is complete, what you'll discover is that nothing is more attractive than genuinely and FULLY being yourself. That's all game is. But when you start you are so self-conscious and so inauthentic that you have no idea what FULLY being yourself means. Game is a process of a many discovering himself. And then women get attracted like flies on shit.

If you can just be 100% fully authentically yourself without an ounce of fear or embarrassment in front of a hot woman, that's all you need to sleep with her. It really is that simple. But it's also really hard to pull off if you're a socially awkward guy with little dating experience who secrete hates himself for all his flaws.

All you need is to be able to walk up to a beautiful women, look her straight in the eyes like you want to fuck her, and then proceed to have a fun playful relaxed conversation, charged with a tinge of sexual energy. Easier said than done. Real game is about training yourself to be able to do that.

[docs20]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There are right and wrong ways to learn game.

If you're doing good game, your goal is to develop authenticity and inner strength. You're not trying to please the girl at all. If you go in trying to please the girl, that's bad game, and she will smell it and reject you. With good game you're not being fake to trick her into liking you, you're working on yourself as a many to burn off all your fear and weakness so that when she's talking to you, you actually are a highly attractive, strong, valuable man. And then she falls in love. She's not falling in love with a fake or a people-pleaser. If anything, game will make you icy and detached. You will stop caring what people think of you. And then your game will shoot through the roof because women find that so attractive.

In the end, after your entire gaming journey is complete, what you'll discover is that nothing is more attractive than genuinely and FULLY being yourself. That's all game is. But when you start you are so self-conscious and so inauthentic that you have no idea what FULLY being yourself means. Game is a process of a many discovering himself. And then women get attracted like flies on shit.

If you can just be 100% fully authentically yourself without an ounce of fear or embarrassment in front of a hot woman, that's all you need to sleep with her. It really is that simple. But it's also really hard to pull off if you're a socially awkward guy with little dating experience who secrete hates himself for all his flaws.

All you need is to be able to walk up to a beautiful women, look her straight in the eyes like you want to fuck her, and then proceed to have a fun playful relaxed conversation, charged with a tinge of sexual energy. Easier said than done. Real game is about training yourself to be able to do that.

@Leo GuraI know that you deal with something so much more bigger than pick-up, but please, for the love of God, among the many videos get this shit out of our way, give us a clear path to get there, give us realistic expectations and how-tos to get to the point that you're telling about, telling us how to be conscious in pick-up, etc. Cause we need you to help us sort out all the information in the pick-up community: too many and contradictory and often too low-consciousness and intellectually strategic and manipulative.
We'd lose too much time without the right guidance, time that would be better spent in the spiritual journey, life-purpose, business, studying, etc.

[JohnD]

@docs20 Sounds like you're still struggling with fear. It's the same old advice any pick-up artist would give you. Approach, approach, approach.

Really, it's more than that. You must recognize your fear, and face it. When you find yourself fearful, follow through anyway.

This applies to all walks of life. I think Leo has a dreamkiller episode about this, or perhaps a full video about doing the emotionally challenging thing.

If you approach a girl despite the fear, your mind now knows that the fear is only that - fear. The fear is present and active while your emotions are telling you to approach. When you face this fear over and over, you gain deeper and deeper confidence in doing whatever you're doing in the face of fear.

[Hardkill]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There are right and wrong ways to learn game.

If you're doing good game, your goal is to develop authenticity and inner strength. You're not trying to please the girl at all. If you go in trying to please the girl, that's bad game, and she will smell it and reject you. With good game you're not being fake to trick her into liking you, you're working on yourself as a many to burn off all your fear and weakness so that when she's talking to you, you actually are a highly attractive, strong, valuable man. And then she falls in love. She's not falling in love with a fake or a people-pleaser. If anything, game will make you icy and detached. You will stop caring what people think of you. And then your game will shoot through the roof because women find that so attractive.

In the end, after your entire gaming journey is complete, what you'll discover is that nothing is more attractive than genuinely and FULLY being yourself. That's all game is. But when you start you are so self-conscious and so inauthentic that you have no idea what FULLY being yourself means. Game is a process of a many discovering himself. And then women get attracted like flies on shit.

If you can just be 100% fully authentically yourself without an ounce of fear or embarrassment in front of a hot woman, that's all you need to sleep with her. It really is that simple. But it's also really hard to pull off if you're a socially awkward guy with little dating experience who secrete hates himself for all his flaws.

All you need is to be able to walk up to a beautiful women, look her straight in the eyes like you want to fuck her, and then proceed to have a fun playful relaxed conversation, charged with a tinge of sexual energy. Easier said than done. Real game is about training yourself to be able to do that.

Okay, I do agree with what you said here. However, there are a couple of issues I still have with learning good game.

The first concern I have is that learning good game still might turn a guy into a stoic being who is forced to mask all of the pain of rejection and uncertainty he has to deal with on a constant basis. What if he reaches a certain point where he can no longer handle anymore rejection from women. Back when I approached hundreds of girls and tried connecting with countless girls on online dating websites and other social media platforms, I got to a point where I felt my self esteem and confident drop so much and I got so exhausted with having to pretend that I was okay with being constantly rejected. I felt so worthless and incredibly frustrated and indignant about dating. 

The second concern I have has to do with working on my social skills. While it’s all sounds good that being a confident and masculine man is what makes you attractive to women, having strong masculinity and solid confidence isn’t actually enough to date and sleep with a great amount of the kind of women you want. Unfortunately, you need to also have a good level of social skills to achieve the results you truly desire with women. Yes, we all need to have at least an average level of social skills to properly get along with others at least at a normal functioning level, respect other people’s boundaries, acknowledge and comply with authority, read and understand non-verbal cues given by the person or people you’re talking to, act with at least a certain level of dignity, learn how to be kind/sympathetic/empathetic with others, etc. However, what about learning the techniques or methods to be more charismatic such as good story telling, humor/wit, being good at starting a conversation, transitioning conversation topics smoothly, having deep, meaningful conversations that invoke emotions in others, etc.? Wouldn’t learning and practicing all of those techniques eventually turn you into a people pleasing entertainer?

 

 

[Leo Gura]

15 hours ago, docs20 said:

@Leo GuraI know that you deal with something so much more bigger than pick-up, but please, for the love of God, among the many videos get this shit out of our way, give us a clear path to get there, give us realistic expectations and how-tos to get to the point that you're telling about, telling us how to be conscious in pick-up, etc. Cause we need you to help us sort out all the information in the pick-up community: too many and contradictory and often too low-consciousness and intellectually strategic and manipulative.
We'd lose too much time without the right guidance, time that would be better spent in the spiritual journey, life-purpose, business, studying, etc.

I know your struggle. But there's only so much time in the day to teach.

Pickup is a journey. You must struggle through it to get it, and then transcend it. Just begin with the mountains of material that's already on YT. You'll figure it out if you try. And enjoy the process. Don't make it just about the results.

24 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Okay, I do agree with what you said here. However, there are a couple of issues I still have with learning good game.

The first concern I have is that learning good game still might turn a guy into a stoic being who is forced to mask all of the pain of rejection and uncertainty he has to deal with on a constant basis. What if he reaches a certain point where he can no longer handle anymore rejection from women. Back when I approached hundreds of girls and tried connecting with countless girls on online dating websites and other social media platforms, I got to a point where I felt my self esteem and confident drop so much and I got so exhausted with having to pretend that I was okay with being constantly rejected. I felt so worthless and incredibly frustrated and indignant about dating. 

There's always ways you can screw something up or make it into a dysfunction.

You are taking rejection too personally because you're so desperate for success. Your neediness becomes its own hell.

You gotta learn to date in a less needy way.  Go to the nightclub/bar and enjoy yourself for once. Enjoy being there. Enjoy talking to new people. Try not to make it a chore or something you do to get a score.

Quote

The second concern I have has to do with working on my social skills. While it’s all sounds good that being a confident and masculine man is what makes you attractive to women, having strong masculinity and solid confidence isn’t actually enough to date and sleep with a great amount of the kind of women you want. Unfortunately, you need to also have a good level of social skills to achieve the results you truly desire with women. Yes, we all need to have at least an average level of social skills to properly get along with others at least at a normal functioning level, respect other people’s boundaries, acknowledge and comply with authority, read and understand non-verbal cues given by the person or people you’re talking to, act with at least a certain level of dignity, learn how to be kind/sympathetic/empathetic with others, etc.

Yes, learning social skills is key. It's perhaps even more important and fundamental than dating itself. Your larger goal should be to learn how to socialize effortlessly. This comes with lots of practice. Simply by being more social you will attract lots of women automatically. The biggest reason for incels is that they simply aren't social enough. And Facebook and Reddit don't count as being social here.

Quote

However, what about learning the techniques or methods to be more charismatic such as good story telling, humor/wit, being good at starting a conversation, transitioning conversation topics smoothly, having deep, meaningful conversations that invoke emotions in others, etc.? Wouldn’t learning and practicing all of those techniques eventually turn you into a people pleasing entertainer?

These are all great things. Yes, master them all. No, learning those things will not turn you into a people pleasing entertainer. It will just make you much more magnetic and comfortable in conversation. You will also enjoy your conversations more, not just with women but with men and everyone.

Once you are good at conversation, conversation becomes enjoyable for its own sake. Then you have the best of both worlds. Women and men will flock to you. Who doesn't love a good conversationalist/story-teller?

Have you ever met a really good conversationalist who drew you in for hours?

[Hardkill]

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

There's always ways you can screw something up or make it into a dysfunction.

You are taking rejection too personally because you're so desperate for success. Your neediness becomes its own hell.

You gotta learn to date in a less needy way.  Go to the nightclub/bar and enjoy yourself for once. Enjoy being there. Enjoy talking to new people. Try not to make it a chore or something you do to get a score.

 

I've already tried just enjoying myself at nighclubs/bars, streets, malls, social cirlce, etc. A lot of times I do enjoy having a good time just being there and enjoy talking to new people. However, I would say about the majority of the times that I've been at any kind of social environment, event, or gathering of some sort where there are girls are when I can't help, but feel like I will be missing out on something great if I don't get at least one of the cute or hot girls I meet to date and sleep with me. I feel especially disappointed every time I get rejected by a girl whom I find to have the ideal look and personality that I am looking for.

 

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Yes, learning social skills is key. It's perhaps even more important and fundamental than dating itself. Your larger goal should be to learn how to socialize effortlessly. This comes with lots of practice. Simply by being more social you will attract lots of women automatically. The biggest reason for incels is that they simply aren't social enough. And Facebook and Reddit don't count as being social here.

I've gone to many social events and have been a part of a number of social circles throughout many years of my life, but I failed to sleep with or even get more than a 1st date with any of the girls I was attracted to whom I met from all of those social events I went to and the social circles I was in. I also feel like it becomes so tedious and frustrating every time I have to analyze what I might have done wrong, let alone having to figure out if I even did anything wrong?

 

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

These are all great things. Yes, master them all. No, learning those things will not turn you into a people pleasing entertainer. It will just make you much more magnetic and comfortable in conversation. You will also enjoy your conversations more, not just with women but with men and everyone.

Once you are good at conversation, conversation becomes enjoyable for its own sake. Then you have the best of both worlds. Women and men will flock to you. Who doesn't love a good conversationalist/story-teller?

Have you ever met a really good conversationalist who drew you in for hours?

Okay, I see what you're saying. Though every time I work on building my charisma, I get exhausted, depressed, and frustrated especially when I have to analyze each and every single interaction I did to figure out where I went wrong or if it was something that I said that wasn't funny or too dull or not cool. 

[PenguinPablo]

@Hardkill stop doing all that nonsense. You need to strip away the layers also, not just add. 

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Hardkill said:

I feel especially disappointed every time I get rejected by a girl whom I find to have the ideal look and personality that I am looking for.

Yes, I know your pain very well. I have lost 100s of such girls out of sheer incompetence and weakness.

I think your only problem is lack of volume. You gotta understand that getting good at this skill set literally requires 1000s of approaches every year. Really, you have to devote a few years of your life to it.

Quote

I get exhausted, depressed, and frustrated especially when I have to analyze each and every single interaction I did to figure out where I went wrong or if it was something that I said that wasn't funny or too dull or not cool.

How badly do you want to get good? That's the key question. As Zizek would say, are you willing to sell your mother into slavery to get good with girls? If not, your results will be mediocre. You need serious vision and drive here. You will have to work your ass off for it. Having sex with lots of hot women is not something that life just hands you on a silver platter. Becoming a highly attractive man is a huge makeover project. It involves making deep structural changes to your entire lifestyle and way of thinking.

If it was easy, every guy would be sleeping with a model.

[bazera]

@Leo Gura

Quote

Becoming a highly attractive man is a huge makeover project. It involves making deep structural changes to your entire lifestyle and way of thinking.

What do you think are the most important structural changes that a man can make to become a highly attractive one?

[Hardkill]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, I know your pain very well. I have lost 100s of such girls out of sheer incompetence and weakness.

I think your only problem is lack of volume. You gotta understand that getting good at this skill set literally requires 1000s of approaches every year. Really, you have to devote a few years of your life to it.

So, how do u deal with or cope with the pain of failure and struggle with women, especially when you’re still a novice?

 

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How badly do you want to get good? That's the key question. As Zizek would say, are you willing to sell your mother into slavery to get good with girls? If not, your results will be mediocre. You need serious vision and drive here. You will have to work your ass off for it. Having sex with lots of hot women is not something that life just hands you on a silver platter. Becoming a highly attractive man is a huge makeover project. It involves making deep structural changes to your entire lifestyle and way of thinking.

If it was easy, every guy would be sleeping with a model.

Well I am willing to put in the work, but what if it no longer becomes fun at all or negatively affects my overall happiness? I thought you also said that pickup and dating was supposed to enjoyable. 

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, bazera said:

@Leo Gura

What do you think are the most important structural changes that a man can make to become a highly attractive one?

That's such a huge topic.

Here's a few things quickly off the top of my head:

• Laser eye contact
• Learning to create a genuine smile on a dime
• Firm, commanding tone of voice. Slowing down your rate of speech.
• Being relaxed and at ease in your body when talking
• Simply lots of socialization and conversation experience (doesn't even have to be with women).
• The stuff I talk about in my video: How To Be Funny
• The ability to talk about yourself endlessly.
• Dressing sharp. Get all of your clothing tailored for slim fit. Groom yourself well. Upgrade your whole wardrobe to be stylish. Develop a sense of style that suits you.
• The ability to be playful and laugh at yourself and life
• Handle your sexual neediness so that you aren't sexually needy
• Develop charisma -- I have a good book about charisma on my book list.
• Passion for life. You must be building an awesome life for yourself aside from girls/sex/relationship. The girl should be the least important part of your life. Your life should be so awesome that anyone who comes into contact with you would feel lucky. You must be in love with yourself and your life.
• Self-Love. Accept yourself as you are, completely. Be thrilled to be you. Treat yourself as God's gift to the world and to women.

 

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

So, how do u deal with or cope with the pain of failure and struggle with women, especially when you’re still a novice?

You feel the pain of it fully. You cry. You pull your hair out.

Some nights I had such failure that I literally drove home crying. And that's what made me stronger. The suffering grows you.

Quote

Well I am willing to put in the work, but what if it no longer becomes fun at all or negatively affects my overall happiness? I thought you also said that pickup and dating was supposed to enjoyable. 

Read the book Mastery by George Leonard.

[bazera]

@Leo Gura

Quote

The ability to talk about yourself endlessly.

I don't understand, how does this make men more attractive to women? Sounds too egotistical and self-centered. Doesn't that repel girls?

Quote

Handle your sexual neediness so that you aren't sexually needy

This reminds me of the problem when you need the experience to get a job, but you need a job to get an experience  Sounds similar.

How can you handle sexual neediness, when in order to attract women, you need to have your sexual needs met?

I guess the way that list of yours works is that one doesn't have to check all the items of it and then consider himself attractive. One at a time will make a man more and more attractive to a woman.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, bazera said:

@Leo Gura

I don't understand, how does this make men more attractive to women? Sounds too egotistical and self-centered. Doesn't that repel girls?

Women are attracted to cocky guys. Stop listening to what women logically tell you they want.

The ability to talk endlessly about yourself is crucial. That's what all extroverts know how to do to initiate and sustain conversation.

It's not egotistical.

"Today I blew out my tire. Then this happened. Then that happened." etc. That's how conversation is made.

Quote

This reminds me of the problem when you need the experience to get a job, but you need a job to get an experience  Sounds similar.

How can you handle sexual neediness, when in order to attract women, you need to have your sexual needs met?

Yes, that's the catch-22 of it.

How do you handle it? Same way you handle getting a job. You slowly build up experience through practice. Even if you are needy, it's not like 0% of women will sleep with you. There will still be 1 in 100 who will. You can also, like, keep your neediness suppressed for a while while you're with a girl. It's not like all of your inner demons need to be worn on your sleeve. She can't know you're needy unless you act needy in front of her.

There is an element of fake it till you make it in this process. Same as with getting a job.

[Meetjoeblack]

On 2020-01-27 at 11:01 PM, Hardkill said:

Hey guys, I’ve been thinking about something. If trying to convince people to see you as being good enough for something social, sexual, and/or romantic is self-demeaning, especially if you try to change the mind of the person who rejected you before, then wouldn’t that mean that trying to change yourself to try to become a more attractive person bad for your self-esteem? I mean if you’re trying to learn how to have better game or better social skills and seduction with people, including women then wouldn’t you end up becoming a people pleaser who is trying so hard to prove to others that you are worthy or cool enough to have friendship, sex, and/or love?

The Pickup community refers to the following as mental masturbation.

Bottom line, you either pull or you don't. More annoying is the topics come up and a guy will moralize pickup. There's a discussion about some guys opinion on game. Dude doesn't pull. He's never seen a vjj before. He can't approach but he's got his little opinion and virtue signaling.

There's a reason why every mpua emphasize the importance of infield. The solution to every problem is solved infield.

Breakup? Next set. Divorce? Why married in the first place given 80% of divorce stat initiated by women + next set. There's nothing like approaching. There's no substitute for genuine desire which isn't transactional.

[Hardkill]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You feel the pain of it fully. You cry. You pull your hair out.

Some nights I had such failure that I literally drove home crying. And that's what made me stronger. The suffering grows you.

Read the book Mastery by George Leonard.

That's it? So, you rarely if ever enjoyed the journey to achieving success with women? I mean, are you telling me that there's nothing I can do about dealing with the constant pain of rejection and failure, except just bare it all like a tragic victim? What if you feel began to feel suicidal and hopeless about dating, sex, and romance?

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

That's it? So, you rarely if ever enjoyed the journey to achieving success with women? I mean, are you telling me that there's nothing I can do about dealing with the constant pain of rejection and failure, except just bare it all like a tragic victim? What if you feel began to feel suicidal and hopeless about dating, sex, and romance?

No, I never said it was all suffering and pain. I said SOME nights. Other times it can fun, exciting, positive, etc. Overall it's an adventure. Don't think of it as some negative chore you must do.

I don't understand why you need to feel suicidal about it. If you're doing the work, there's plenty of hope and no need for suicide. You will get laid if you go out enough. I guarantee it.

[bazera]

@Leo Gura What do you think about Pick Up in stage Blue society?

I live in a place where if you randomly approach a girl, she will most likely be traditional christian type of a girl who doesn't have sex until marriage.

How would you deal with that without moving to another country?