Leo-Your view on veganism?

[remember]

hehe

 

[CreamCat]

24 minutes ago, remember said:

well... genetic engineering will be much to cost intense - this is the future, even though it sounds disgusting:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_microbiota_transplant

In other words, eat shit.

[remember]

1 hour ago, CreamCat said:

In other words, eat shit.

no, it`s usually not oraly transplanted. well of course we could think about gut bacteria that are able to digest really low quality food - but the overall effect for the body would probably be body modulating. just think about the possibility that our guts get specialized on only certain foods and then if there would be a historic fall out, the body wouldn`t be able to eat anything else and survive, but that what is available wouldn`t hold them alive aswell...

it`s a very complex issue.

actually i said: don`t eat shit, then you don`t need that.

don`know if shit is already traded in stock markets but that would be kind of interesting - just imagine you would be the person with the best shit on the world.

Edited November 2, 2019 by remember

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, CreamCat said:

In other words, eat shit.

Genetic engineering is corruption of the natural food we eat and make it less intelligent and healthy to our body, because we are interfering the intelligence of nature with our much lower intelligent egos.

We did already a damage, lets no make it worse.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Food for thought:

Every year we feed 56 billion land animals. So, why the hell can't we feed 8 billion people?

Let that sink in for a moment...

Because we feed 56 billions animals. Profite is first to humanity well being in our todays world. Or that is what you meant.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Nivsch

[DrewNows]

  
 

Personally I’ve found raw vegan high fruit to be the highest vibrational diet, the more alkaline our body the more efficient and regenerative it becomes 

ive had to kill off/eliminate certain bacteria in my gut that create cravings for meat and starches 

Edited November 2, 2019 by DrewNows

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's life. Consider the dilemma a lion is in. You got it easy compared to him.

You cannot stop "evil" if you want to live. Evil cannot be stopped, it must be accepted as what you are.

What do you think about the macro issue (meat industry)?

Without judging your personal desicion that you said you need it physically. 

[DrewNows]

Humans still refuse to believe we have a species specific diet and are strongly attached to ideology and memory based eating, it’s all connected 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by DrewNows

[DrewNows]

@Leo Gura have you done any fasting/detoxification? Or gone into exploration as to how the body functions as a system to understand the causes of all symptoms? 

Edited November 2, 2019 by DrewNows

[SoothedByRain]

@Apparition of Jack there are no demons here, just Creation. 

[DrewNows]

4 hours ago, Shiva said:

5 hours ago, DrewNows said:

 

It's not that people refuse, it's that there's a lot of disagreement about which diet is optimal for this species

‘‘Tis confusion! 
 

4 hours ago, Shiva said:

And then you must also put it in today's context. Maybe the diet that used to be optimal for humans 100.000 years ago is no longer optimal today, given that our life situations have changed quite radically...

We’ve yet to master understanding the human body and the context of today reflects this in science and our cultures but progress is being made and some have realized the power of detoxification and cleaning out the body. Our genetic weaknesses are apparent but we still have a fair amount of influence in healing causation 

[CreamCat]

16 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Genetic engineering is corruption of the natural food we eat and make it less intelligent and healthy to our body, because we are interfering the intelligence of nature with our much lower intelligent egos.

Human intelligence is as much a part of natural intellgence as biological evolution.

Human intelligence is part of nature. You as a human who thinks genetic engineering is corruption are also a part of natural intelligence. You are a piece of natural intelligence because you are a piece of nature by definition.

Edited November 3, 2019 by CreamCat

[Nivsch]

@CreamCat Scientists who think arrogantly they are above nature and they can "improve" the nature products are the most dangerous ones.

In that logic you used i can say that cruel leaders are also part of Infinite Intelligence but it missing the point. Because when you do low consciousness things you aren't in harmony with Infinite Intelligence.

So every oil corporation is an angel and good for the nature but it of course isn't true. There are degrees of accessing the Infinite Intelligence. Our minds, as long as do things to serve only our narrow interests will always be inferior to II.

Edited November 3, 2019 by Nivsch

[CreamCat]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Scientists who think arrogantly they are above nature and they can "improve" the nature products are the most dangerous ones.

In a sense, they are correct. The nature can improve itself. Scientists can improve nature because they are pieces of nature.

Scientists think they are above nature = Nature thinks it is above itself.

Not really arrogant, but delusional because nature is not above nature. It is just what it is.

Nature can be deluded because it is formless. Because it is formless, it can be anything. If it can be anything, it can be stupid and arrogant. Or, it can be a stupid chimpanzee at a zoo.

You seem to differentiate scientists from nature. Seemingly dangerous scientists are just as much a part of nature as a dumb chimpanzee at a zoo.

Edited November 3, 2019 by CreamCat

[Nivsch]

@CreamCat According to this logic pills are also the nature's products and they are as good as fruits and vegetables. It rediculous.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Nivsch

[CreamCat]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@CreamCat Pills are also the nature products according to this logic, and they are as good as fruits and vegetables. It rediculous.

I think you are attacking straw man.

[Average Investor]

It isn't really easy to do. Takes a lot of dedication and patience. I have had some rough patches transitioning to it. No longer eat added sugar or wheat either. Makes it quite hard to find stuff to eat that is not just straight up a fruit or veggie lol. But I love the meals I eat and I have to be creative to make something taste good and be unique. I still have some issues with a little bit of oils in my diet, but a lot of the time I can avoid it. I lost 50 pounds with it and exercise and then gained about 20 pounds of muscle now. Starting to get a a fair amount of muscle. 

I have always fought energy and motivation issues, so it is hard to say how much would change if I ate different. I went from eating garbage to vegan. I feel really good. I just have to make sure I eat a bit extra because I can easily put it off and not eat. 

I keep around a lot of different nuts, dried fruit, and fresh fruit for snacking. I have a fruit and veggie smoothie every day for breakfast. And have a quinoa dish with on large avocado, roma tomato, Yumm sacuce (if you are familiar with the brand), and usually some tofu, beans, or tempheh with it for dinner. I am going to start making my own sauce again to mix it up for it and probably be a bit healthier for me. Not super crazy I mean I eat that pretty much every day and make changes to it.

Smoothie has one beet, handful of spinach kale etc, chia seeds, banana, celery, one large carrot, half english cucumber or normal one, and then the fruit is always rotating organic frozen fruit.  Fruit will be things like peaches, mangos, strawberries, blueberries, raspberries, dragonfruit, and probably some more I forget. 

Working on lunch usually I just snack, but try to have something like leos soup and stuff like that usually. 

[Scholar]

On 2.11.2019 at 11:28 AM, Leo Gura said:

That's life. Consider the dilemma a lion is in. You got it easy compared to him.

You cannot stop "evil" if you want to live. Evil cannot be stopped, it must be accepted as what you are.

That's what we have mussels and insects for. Humans might be designed for consumption of insects.

 

It would be interesting to know whether you actually have ever truly faced the "evil" you talk about outside of mere intellectualization. If not, I would recommend visiting a slaughterhouse.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Scholar

[Scholar]

25 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

Absolutely! I am pro as much plants in diet as possible. Just by increasing an intake of fibre to 50 grams and drinking 2.5 liters of water a lot of people's problems will go away in a week.

I just have the issue of absolutizing for the sake of being special, unique or to have a label. Lots of vegans are deeply suffering because they are traumatised what will happen if they ever touch an animal product. Your surrounding will crucify you if you have demonisted them for eating meat but what if the vegan ends up being the one falling apart? It takes an enormous amount of emotional pain and courage to drop that ideology. Not to mention it prevents one from rising on the spiral beyond green as long as the ideology is deeply rooted in unconsciousness. If one cannot appreciate the variety of perspectives, it will always create suffering and neediness to defend. 

We have just become so lost listening to experts. doctors and healers that we don't have a sense of our own intuition anymore. 

And the suffering of the animals is completely irrelevant? We have mussels, how can you possibly argue for torturing and killing animals for products that are completely unnecessary for survival?

Sure you might feel a little less optimal if you eat mussels, but they will give you everything you need. Veganism is an ethical principle not a diet, it means to reduce exploitation where it is not necessary. Criticizing veganism from below is easy, a critique from above will not result in the same kind of justification of exploitation as orange gives, like appeals to futility coming from Leo.

 

The assumption is that optimal human health is more important than everything else in this world, including the future of our ecology, the suffering of the majority of beings living on this planet and so forth. That is an insane, human-centric way of looking at the world.

 

The fact that you think veganism is about being special, unique of having a label means you have not yet reached green whatsoever. Veganism is about an increase in compassion for groups that we currently view as objects, it is about equality fundamentally. The same reasons that give us the right to live and be free of exploitation are the same the animals deserve them.

If you stopped having black slaves and joined the abolitionist groups what do you think would have happened if you at some point decided you want to go back to having slaves because of all the back pain that you have now that you have to work in the fields yourself? It is human nature to react agains that kind of "betrayal" far more excessively than against people who have not yet become conscious of the suffering they are causing to their black slaves.

 

And recognize that Leo's way of looking at this would have easily allowed him to keep his black slaves, because "You cannot live without evil", and because "It would not help him optimally self-actualize because of the back pains he would have from working on the field".

Edited November 5, 2019 by Scholar

[Scholar]

55 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

@Scholar if your idea of health is eating the ocean garbage disposals called "mussels" by all means go for it. Talking about the ethics, mussels and small sea creatures that not only clean the waters but they also provide food to larger animals. Is it right to eat them? 

Don't you go demonising when you have your own devilry to purify. I am not criticising veganism from below as I have been part of it for 4 years, attended demonstrations and debated people endlessly until I realised how dogmatic and ideological I have become, full of hate and judgement. My criticism was towards the blindness and horizontal thinking of many people who are part of this movement. It has become us and them rather than us humans. Us good vegans and them evil meat eaters. 

Believe it or not but not everyone can stop eating animals. Saying that is an ignorance and lack of knowledge of human physiology, genetics and constitution. 

 

The problem is that the blindness and horizontal thinking in any other group but vegans is equally as high or even higher. Just talk to your average person about meat eating and see how they respond.

Creating identity, even if at some point these identities might be limiting, is a crucial part of social process. It is better to have a dysfunctional vegan movement than to have no vegan movement at all. Fundamentally it is about creating awareness of the suffering and destruction the animal industry is causing world-wide and locally.

Sure, vegans have an us-vs-them mentality, but so do non-vegans. They hate vegans, as soon as you even dare to mention it you are an outcast. And this is relevant, because we are talking about a difference in morality that is quite substantial. Most people still think it is fine to kill animals simply for the pleasure they receive from eating animal-products. The conversation about whether it is healthy or not is not even in the foreground and is only used to dismiss veganism as a whole in current mainstream media.

 

Sure there are dogmatic people, crazy raw-food flat-earthers who ruin their health and then go on about how ideological veganism is. There are also people who are very passionate about animal rights and are willing to make health-sacrifices for it and demand for other people to do the same. There are also vegans who only do it for health reasons.

There is a difference between debating these issues and actually seeing animals being killed and slaughtered for the products that you deem necessary. The facts are most people can get by without eating most animal products, those who do need them probably can live by eating mussels or insects. Sure they will not feel optimal, but the right to feel optimal is in my opinion does not overstate the right for another beings freedom of deliberate slaughter.

 

Additionally, if anyone here does indeed believe animal products are necessary for health, then it would be our utmost moral imperative to push society towards developing technology like lab-grown meat so that we can abolish the kind of exploitation that is currently necessary. Do I see any ex-vegans argue for that? Of course not, because they do not really care.

 

We have an impact on this world and on other individuals, while it is obvious that we cannot demand people to stop consuming these products if they are necessary for their survival, in a society in which it is still fully acceptable, I do think we can have more deeper conversations than "Vegans are ideological, I was part of it and I know it!".

 

That to me has nothing to do with integral thinking. It is a regression into individualistic paradigms that put the humans at the center of the universe. If we do need certain products to survive, we better reduce the impact we have on others as much as possible and also work on solutions which will do so in the future. Right now the awareness around animal rights and ecology is so low that the dogmatism in veganism and similar movements must be accepted. You can try to correct it, but to dismiss the movement as a whole means to regress and not to progress.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Scholar