What is a lie?

[Truth Addict]

Share your understanding of lies/illusion.

Just gathering perspectives for a potential future thread.

[tsuki]

A lie is a deliberate attempt at creating an illusion.
Illusion is when something appears to be different from what it is.

A lie implies intent and a liar, while illusion does not.
Some know that there only appears to be a liar, so lies in themselves are an illusion.
Illusion is ultimately how creation happens, so illusions are real.

[WelcometoReality]

@Truth Addict I agree with @tsuki . For there to be a lie there needs to be an intent to deceive.

An illusion does not require an intent.

[Nahm]

Non-sense. The lie is not conceptual. People lie in ignorance honestly all the time. 

[Truth Addict]

@tsuki @WelcometoReality @Nahm @ActualizedDavid

Thank you for your contributions guys. I'll contemplate them and might give you a feedback.

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@tsuki @WelcometoReality @Nahm @ActualizedDavid

Thank you for your contributions guys. I'll contemplate them and might give you a feedback.

That's a lie.

Jk

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Truth Addict]

15 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

That's a lie.

Jk

That's a lie. 

No kidding.

[Farnaby]

What about lies we say when we’re emotional. Such as: “I’m fine” when it’s actually not true but we’re scared or angry and don’t want to speak about what’s really going on?

[Inliytened1]

Lies are an interesting thing.  Because they are in the realm of the relative - truth with a lowercase t vs falsehood is a duality..and as we know all dualities are relative.  

If a person actually believes their own lie is it still a lie?

Isn't truth vs falsehood something we make up?

Interesting questions to ponder...

 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Inliytened1

[Truth Addict]

16 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

What about lies we say when we’re emotional. Such as: “I’m fine” when it’s actually not true but we’re scared or angry and don’t want to speak about what’s really going on?

Interesting question.

11 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Lies are an interesting thing.  Because they are in the realm of the relative - truth with a lowercase t vs falsehood is a duality..and as we know all dualities are relative.  

If a person actually believes their own lie is it still a lie?

Isn't truth vs falsehood something we make up?

Interesting questions to ponder...

You're going to draft Mr. David 

[Nahm]

This is a lie. 

[Truth Addict]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

This is a lie. 

This is a lie.

[Inliytened1]

@Keyhole nice!

[Truth Addict]

@tsuki @WelcometoReality

I like the distinction you've made between lies and illusion.

Anyway, let alone the earlier distinction, isn't the distinction between 'what is' and 'illusion' illusory? I mean isn't 'what is' merely an appearance? Isn't 'what is' how it appears to be? How could illusions exist at all?

Furthermore, isn't language itself illusory as well? So how can we know what a lie actually is while we still have to make sure that our method is not one? I would say that it works both ways, depending on how we look at it.

I would say that a lie is what we think it is. We create lies with our thinking.

@Nahm

I'm not sure of what you mean.

@ActualizedDavid

How so?

10 hours ago, Farnaby said:

What about lies we say when we’re emotional. Such as: “I’m fine” when it’s actually not true but we’re scared or angry and don’t want to speak about what’s really going on?

I think from the meta perspective we could say that being scared or angry don't contradict being fine.

However, saying that I'm fine does not say anything about reality, since language is just symbols and symbols don't really have meanings in actuality.

9 hours ago, Nahm said:

This is a lie. 

How do you distinguish a lie from the truth? Calling something a lie is just covering 'what is' with a transparent layer of belief ?

10 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Lies are an interesting thing.  Because they are in the realm of the relative - truth with a lowercase t vs falsehood is a duality..and as we know all dualities are relative.

What is the realm of the relative? To me, assuming that equals saying that there is a free will, or that duality is the case. I would say that the realm of the relative is the realm that the devil had created so that he doesn't have to wake up.

6 hours ago, Keyhole said:

Something that deviates from Truth.

Are they different in any means though?

Edited August 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[pluto]

Truth is Harmony

Lie is Disharmony

[Truth Addict]

Just now, pluto said:

Truth is Harmony

Lie is Disharmony

What if Disharmony is the case?

[tsuki]

59 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@tsuki @WelcometoReality

I like the distinction you've made between lies and illusion.

Anyway, let alone the earlier distinction, isn't the distinction between 'what is' and 'illusion' illusory? I mean isn't 'what is' merely an appearance? Isn't 'what is' how it appears to be? How could illusions exist at all?

'What is', is an appearance, but calling it 'merely' an appearance is a huge understatement.
Illusion is how all of creation happens, but it says nothing about why creation happens.
By dismissing existence as, let's say, feature, you are dismissing Love as the 'basis (?)' of Emptiness.
Basis is not the right word here, but I will leave it as that to prevent this conversation from spiraling down again.

If you see that 'what is', is an appearance, then there is no reason to ask 'why' that appearance is.
However, the same predicament binds you when you don't see that 'what is' is an appearance and have not even started seeking.
There is no reason to seek, but that is not a good enough reason to not seek.

Illusions exist because they themselves are illusory. 

[karkaore]

Lying is relative. If one is lying to onself for so long, that lie becomes truth from ones perspective. 

[Truth Addict]

@tsuki

I don't get it. How can there be something that doesn't exist. How is illusion real but is not existing?

Is the interpretation of truth what you mean with the word 'illusion'? If so, Is not the interpretation being?

What I mean by the word 'appearance' is one irreducible thing, be it thoughts, sights, sounds, interpretations, etc... or a mixture of some or all of them. We might as well call it 'the present moment'.

59 minutes ago, karkaore said:

Lying is relative.

Or, is the relative a lie?

Edited August 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[tsuki]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I don't get it. How can there be something that doesn't exist. How is illusion real but is not existing?

What you are doing is basically this:

Oh look, there is something moving, its bubbly and really difficult to look at. Then, you zoom out and go OH, so it is a wave, and a wave is on the sea, so there really is no wave, but there is the sea. And then, you're like: but what is that thing over there that does not move? And you zoom out and you're like OH, it is a shore that is a part of land! So there is sea and there is shore, so there really is no sea and no shore, but there is the Earth! But hey, what is that thing over there that is not the sea, not the shore not the Earth? So there can be something else other than Earth? OH, that is space! So there is Earth and there is space, but what is that thing... OH SO MAYBE NOTHING REALLY IS THERE AND EVERYTHING IS JUST AN ILLUSION?!

Ultimately, nothing really is there and everything is an illusion, but that is only because you're all zoomed out and deny the validity of your 'intermediate' interpretation. You haven't 'turned back'.
Illusion is a process, not a 'thing'. It is ignorance, finitude, ignoring. Existence is illusory, but it exists.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Is the interpretation of truth what you mean with the word 'illusion'? If so, Is not the interpretation being?

From the solipsistic perspective, yes somewhat. You, the small ego, are tricking yourself into believing things about what is.
What is, is without qualities in itself, but you as an ego are finite and manufacture things about it because you forget that.
If you stop forgetting that, you will arrive at reality as-is, but you do not get rid of your finitude.
You are bound by your body and its needs and your egoic fragility (care) does not allow you to just die like that.

From the solipsistic perspective however, this 'interpretation of truth' that stems from ignorance is creation itself.
You are "illusing" things into existence because you're finite. How cool is that?

But wait, that is just 'small head solipsism'.
There is also 'big head solipsism' where you understand that reality that binds your small ego with the body, is a mind itself.
You you can get out of your 'small ego' and inhabit the 'big ego' directly and do all sorts of crazy shit with illusion that manifests things into existence "objectively". That is what, I believe, Leo teaches. It is very reminiscent of the Hermetic tradition.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

What I mean by the word 'appearance' is one irreducible thing, be it thoughts, sights, sounds, interpretations, etc... or a mixture of some or all of them. We might as well call it 'the present moment'.

I'm not sure I get the significance of this paragraph. I hope that the previous section clears some thing up.

Edited August 24, 2019 by tsuki