Baotrader

i'm temporarily back. The dark side of enlightenment

25 posts in this topic

Hi everyone I'm currently working with my superiorities on a project. They don't allow phones or internet. It has been 5 days straight and i had to beg them to spare me 2 hour. I feel like i might want to post this topic

After watching Leo's latest video i see it resonating with me a lot. I did not have the courage to say it in the past but now i feel i do. I have come to the point that i am quite sure enlightenment can be negative if one is not careful. It can make you feel nothing matters and there's no reason to do anything. You can become a lazy person who uses enlightenment to escape life. And it can be very nuanced, complex and tricky that even the enlightened person does not realize he himself is doing it. For example, Osho. I am a big fan of him but i have to say his lifestyle of having anything luxurious he wants by having others pay for it is not quite right. He's not a dependent person though. If anyone watches a video when he was telling the press interviewer( when his commune was investigated) and saw how he was courageously saying he knew the police's intention was clear: "They want to destroy this commune" and a video of him saying from US prison that he would be in prison to fight for freedom of speech you could clearly see Osho was an admirable enlightened master but i still think he had some BIG shadow elements. 

Enlightenment is a beautiful thing in general but one has to have strong personality and solid metaphysical foundational life POV first otherwise it could easily be a negative thing.

I have an enlightened friend ( very close friend) ( he might not be enlightened if you apply Leo's standard) and he can sit tight in 8 hours no problem. His eyes almost never blinked. He's emotionally grounded. Nothing can make him angry.  He completely does not fucking care others opinions of him. But he has 1 problem: He does not agree to get a job. He lives dependently on dividends from the money he inherited. It's not big enough for him to live his whole life though i am sure. I asked him why he does not want to have a job or conduct business he casually repiled: "Why should i bring physical suffering for my body". I don't do business because to succeed in business you would have to be good at sales and it means trying to please people no matter how irrational they are and it means lying. I cannot lie. Whenever i want to do something i do it. Whenever i want to say sthing i say it". 

Since we're close friend i went further asking: "Someday you will run out of money and have to get a job. When you turn 30 who would hire you if your CV said you have never worked for any companies before, have not had any business or work experience" He said he got no idea.

 Leo's video hit the nail in the head saying you can reach the meditative state of awareness of the Zen master but not stages of development but I don't think Leo or anyone could imagine the extreme some people like my friend got into. 

May I add, my friend is not a Zen devil. He's kindhearted and polite

@Leo Gura thank you for your help and support

Thank everyone for having concern about me. I have decided to move on with life

Edited by Baotrader
wrong word

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Um. I don't even know where to begin.. If you care about life you care about Maya. This life/world is not real. 

You are not getting it.

You have beliefs/concepts/opinions/values which say that you shouldn't "escape from life", that you shouldn't be lazy, and that you should have a job. That's duality and Maya right there.

Being dispassionate about this world and your life is one of the important things if you want to get enlightened. You are just creating more vasanas if you care about crap/objects in this duality. It's a effective way to stay inside samsara.

Edited by Mikael89

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I see beliefs in both sides, well it is up to him to decide what to do, but if you want you can try to convince him by giving him reasons of why he will harm himself more in long run by doing nothing, then doing something and that people lives depend on someone doing something. 

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@purerogue Dude. Consciousness/Brahman/Absolute/God cannot get harmed. And he is not a doer. You guys don't get it.

Edited by Mikael89

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@Baotrader It can certainly be a trap but what wants to constantly be in that state? As long as you're holding onto any kind of state there is a subtle (or not so subtle) form of ego there. Which means that the enlightenment hasn't fully bloomed in that being.

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Mystical states, and non dual awareness by themselves do not mean much.

You can have horrific experiences, depression and be an all around dick while experiencing both. You can also be way more deluded than the average “dualistic” person. 

People’s scope of spirituality, and understanding of enlightenment is extremely limited, and to some they will discover with great pain how delusional they are one day. 

This is why the Buddhists said the dharma will be lost in the future, because the teachers you look up to. The belief systems you’ve created, disguised as beliefs beyond beliefs, are one dimensional and for lack of a better term just as false as your previous belief systems.

It’s quite sad. Yet partly our fault for denying our humanity and seeking escapism instead of growth.

If you are in such a state. Move on, and you might actually grow towards a more nuanced perspective of life. 

Edited by Arhattobe

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@Baotrader Forget about your friend, Osho and enlightenment and put your focus on mastering self actualization for now.

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@Baotrader Nothing matters. 

People can do nothing in their life if they want to. Striving after stuff and giving importance to stuff is samsara though.

I think a fully enlightened being would just laugh when you guys say: "Ooh it's soo important to do stuff in life. It's soo important to have a job, not be lazy, and you should not escape from life (hell, samsara, illusion, duality). Stay right here! In the middle of delusion! Very important."

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2 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

@Baotrader Nothing matters. 

People can do nothing in their life if they want to. Striving after stuff and giving importance to stuff is samsara though.

I think a fully enlightened being would just laugh when you guys say: "Ooh it's soo important to do stuff in life. It's soo important to have a job, not be lazy, and you should not escape from life (hell, samsara, illusion, duality). Stay right here! In the middle of delusion! Very important."

 

It was very important for them to find this answer , was it not, sounds like ignorance to tell other not to look for it, but it is true that it is nothing special. 

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@Mikael89 the more i read what you said ( in others thread also) he more i think you are a kind of lazy dependent person that lives on others money and effort. Sorry to say it but from my POV what you kept saying did not indicate any type of enlightenment but a sign of greediness and ingratitude. I posted this topic just to warn others because some might not have fathomed the danger of enlightenment plus IMMATURE. I myself have no problem with it because the environment i have grown up in does not let me. The mechanism in my mind does not want me to become a lazy person either

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@Baotrader I agree with your opinion. I also think that one should use enlightenment in order to get through the difficulties of life, instead of as a justification for not having a hard life. 

One should use the knowledge of enlightenment to get through the hard times, such as the long days at work or when life does terrible things to you.

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7 hours ago, Baotrader said:

@Mikael89 the more i read what you said ( in others thread also) he more i think you are a kind of lazy dependent person that lives on others money and effort. Sorry to say it but from my POV what you kept saying did not indicate any type of enlightenment but a sign of greediness and ingratitude. I posted this topic just to warn others because some might not have fathomed the danger of enlightenment plus IMMATURE. I myself have no problem with it because the environment i have grown up in does not let me. The mechanism in my mind does not want me to become a lazy person either

I live on others money and effort? Please tell me a example of how I do that. 

Greediness? Where do you get all this stuff from?

I might be lazy, so put me in jail for that horrible crime. I am a horrible person if I'm lazy.

I have never said that I'm enlightened.

What is there to be grateful of?

2 hours ago, Sbilko said:

One should use enlightenment in order to get through the difficulties of life, instead of as a justification for not having a hard life. 

Sigh.

You guys must be kidding. Wow. I'm speechless. I wont reply to you guys anymore, good luck. 

Edited by Mikael89

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On 12/11/2018 at 8:48 AM, Mikael89 said:

@Baotrader Nothing matters. 

People can do nothing in their life if they want to. Striving after stuff and giving importance to stuff is samsara though.

I think a fully enlightened being would just laugh when you guys say: "Ooh it's soo important to do stuff in life. It's soo important to have a job, not be lazy, and you should not escape from life (hell, samsara, illusion, duality). Stay right here! In the middle of delusion! Very important."

@Mikael89 I had a brother who had exactly the same mindset as you. To a "T". He thought he was above the other "fools" that want to support themselves by working. He milked it for as long as he could living for free at the expense of others. All the while was told many times in his best intrest to get a job- but he wouldn't. Than one day life changed and ppl moved on and the free support he had was no longer there. And he asked "What about me? How am i going to survive?". The answer he got: We've already warned you many times for your own good but you didn't heed to our warning. So now you have no choice. He stayed with different friends for a while. But that got old and one by one they all told him not to come back. So he lived on the street for about 5 years moving from one place to another. Often getting his head kicked in by others surviving on the mean streets. He was dead in 5 years. And that was that. Kind of sad really. He had so much to offer too. A naturally talented artist. But he waisted all of it by doing nothing at all. 

 

 

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@cetus56 Um. Okay. You just forgot one little detail: I have been working my ass off pretty much the day when I walked out of school, and still do. I even work nights.

But none of this or that changes what I said before. This duality existence is Maya, Samsara/illusion. Why would it matter if you die? You can't die anyway. So why give value/importance to life? The fact that he died after 5 years.. so what? Who cares? Can Consciousness/God/Brahman die or suffer? Does He have to struggle? No.

None of what you experience here is real. You got to do discrimination between the real and unreal. Only the subjective eternal is real. Impermanent objects in it is not real (for example bodies, emotions, thoughts, wealth, life, the world, etc.)

Edited by Mikael89

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7 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

But none of this or that changes what I said before. This duality existence is Maya, Samsara/illusion. Why would it matter if you die? You can't die anyway. So why give value/importance to life? The fact that he died after 5 years.. so what? Who cares? Can

@Mikael89 I'm sure he would say he didn't want to die getting his head kicked in by some street person. He certainly cared at that moment like he never cared before. You would'nt? Seriously?

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@cetus56 The apparent person (jiva/ego) would apparently seem to care. But the real "Me" (Brahman/Consciousness) would not care. So ultimately it doesn't matter that the person cares.

I missed that he was your brother, so I probably used a bit harsh words in my previous post.

Edited by Mikael89

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@Mikael89 This is my view on the subject. When you know it's all an illusion what difference does it make if you work to pay the bills. The only important thing is in knowing that it's all illusion.

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