The battle between heart and the self (fear)

[zambize]

2 hours ago, Charlotte said:

@zambize these farms you speak of zambize that treat there animals well... I'm genuinely curious... Do they artificially impregnate their cow's? Do they take the calf away from there mother? Do they still pump the animal with hormones? What I'm curious in is do these good farms even exist? 

I don't think animals will be kicked out of anywhere really though, I think they just stop breeding as many animals for slaughter the less meat is bought. 

I understand your point though don't get me wrong. 

AHhh lot of questions.

I'm not sure on a lot of it, it was more of a general sense of being a good farm in that the animals looked happy and comfortable.  They had good outside space and their indoor facilities were clean.  As well as an intuitive sense that the farmers actually cared about their animals.  

They probably do artificially inseminate although I have no idea,  I watched a cattle artificial insemination to try and get a sense of how the animal felt about it.  It seemed moderately uncomfortable, but nothing more than kind of shifting around, and it was all done rather quick.  I'm curious as to if that's done in a really harmful way sometimes or there are other reasons against that, but it seemed pretty mild compared to some stuff I've seen from farms

As far as taking calves away from mothers, I also don't know, it's not something you ask farmers.  Looking it up online it seems like 20% or so of farms will kill off the baby males, although it was really hard to find a good number cause it's kind of a "dirty secret" apparently.  

I think also when I consider what happens if the dairy industry just dies overnight.  It's not like those animals are going to be kept as pets, and they won't survive out on their own.  If a dairy farm closes tomorrow because they aren't making money, those cattle are just going to be slaughtered or shipped off to another dairy farm, rinse and repeat. On one hand, it ends a cycle of being raised for slaughter, and on another, it would just lead to an extermination of basically every domestic cow.   I think that's part of the reason I lean towards wanting to improve the industry, instead of just shut it down completely

What have I gotten myself into 0-o  only for you I guess <3

[Charlotte]

@now is forever oh aye! Send the recipe my way. Thanks so much! 

15 minutes ago, zambize said:

I'm not sure on a lot of it, it was more of a general sense of being a good farm in that the animals looked happy and comfortable.  They had good outside space and their indoor facilities were clean.  As well as an intuitive sense that the farmers actually cared about their animals

Do you think maybe this could just be an assumption on your part? 

16 minutes ago, zambize said:

They probably do artificially inseminate although I have no idea,  I watched a cattle artificial insemination to try and get a sense of how the animal felt about it.  It seemed moderately uncomfortable, but nothing more than kind of shifting around, and it was all done rather quick.  I'm curious as to if that's done in a really harmful way sometimes or there are other reasons against that, but it seemed pretty mild compared to some stuff I've seen from farms

It's all the infections that come along with it. Imagine a women being pregnant 24/7. The pressure, disrupt and turmoil it would create on her body and life. I know women that where relieved when the 9 months were over never mind a life of it! ? Yeah I'm not pointing at the actual insemination (although it does play a part) I'm more pointing to rest of the animals life. Being constantly pregnant, hammered with hormones and antibiotics for the rest of her poor days. 

19 minutes ago, zambize said:

As far as taking calves away from mothers, I also don't know, it's not something you ask farmers.  Looking it up online it seems like 20% or so of farms will kill off the baby males, although it was really hard to find a good number cause it's kind of a "dirty secret" apparently.  

Yeah 20% is pure bs as I'm sure you're aware ? I've physically seen mother's go after their calves when the calves are being holstered by a mini digger away from her. 

22 minutes ago, zambize said:

I think also when I consider what happens if the dairy industry just dies overnight.  It's not like those animals are going to be kept as pets, and they won't survive out on their own.  If a dairy farm closes tomorrow because they aren't making money, those cattle are just going to be slaughtered or shipped off to another dairy farm, rinse and repeat. On one hand, it ends a cycle of being raised for slaughter, and on another, it would just lead to an extermination of basically every domestic cow.   I think that's part of the reason I lean towards wanting to improve the industry, instead of just shut it down completely

Let's be real dude. It wouldn't die overnight would it... I mean from the points you raise I'm glad it won't ? less demand over a realistic timescale would give everything a chance it needs to change slowly. Also there are many many people opening sanctuaries for animals saved from slaughter. Also there are farmers even opening sanctuaries ?  

 

Like I said... Demand and supply chain ??

Can you elaborate what you mean by 'improve' please? 

[zambize]

7 hours ago, Charlotte said:

@now is forever oh aye! Send the recipe my way. Thanks so much! 

Do you think maybe this could just be an assumption on your part? 

It's all the infections that come along with it. Imagine a women being pregnant 24/7. The pressure, disrupt and turmoil it would create on her body and life. I know women that where relieved when the 9 months were over never mind a life of it! ? Yeah I'm not pointing at the actual insemination (although it does play a part) I'm more pointing to rest of the animals life. Being constantly pregnant, hammered with hormones and antibiotics for the rest of her poor days. 

Yeah 20% is pure bs as I'm sure you're aware ? I've physically seen mother's go after their calves when the calves are being holstered by a mini digger away from her. 

Let's be real dude. It wouldn't die overnight would it... I mean from the points you raise I'm glad it won't ? less demand over a realistic timescale would give everything a chance it needs to change slowly. Also there are many many people opening sanctuaries for animals saved from slaughter. Also there are farmers even opening sanctuaries ?  

 

Like I said... Demand and supply chain ??

Can you elaborate what you mean by 'improve' please? 

By improve I mean a lot of the points you've made, taking calves away from mothers and killing them, nonstop pregnancies, etc.  Standards of living for the animals.  I think there is a lot of unnecessary suffering, and I'll definitively be taking time on my own to consider my choice knowing the conditions at a lot of farms.    That being said, I don't this is a situation that ends in a bunch of cows and calves roaming around in sanctuary farms. even though it's heart warming to see people show so much love for animals.  There are apparently 94.4 million cows in the U.S., and if there wasn't a market for their meat or dairy,  I can't imagine more than a few tens of thousands of them being kept in sanctuaries or as pets.  The population of cows is tied to their financial viability.  That's not to say we shouldn't end the dairy/meat industry if they are causing a lot of suffering, but I think it's important to see that this cycle ends with just about every single cow dying, and whether that happens over a couple years or a couple decades, people want dogs not cows, and enough dogs already die because they are unwanted.  

As far as it being an assumption on my part, of course it could be.  We are different kinds of animals with different social needs and ways of experiencing reality, it's as much of an assumption that they are calm as it is that they are suffering in the same way humans.  It was just a general sense based on how animals seem to me when they are calm, but of course I could have misread the situation 

[DrewNows]

2 hours ago, now is forever said:

well they don’t know an alternative. (dogs also don’t know an alternative) they have always only seen the farm they grew up in. i wonder if they would change if they would get to watch movies about slaughter houses. they sometimes go wild though if they smell blood.

i only ever realized how protective we are about our food habits after i went vegan. and i still sometimes eat eggs. but i know exactly where they come from. you see...

This is an interesting subject. I mean what’s the difference between animal suffering and human suffering?

Could these animals even be able to distinguish different alternatives? Something so valuable we can learn from animals is their ability to accept what is (there situation) and not get caught up in the past or future of how we think it should be because it simply cannot be any other way, not in this moment 

[DrewNows]

@now is foreverhaha good point! Could be a direct reflection of the way we treat ourselves, like society. We can only change society by changing ourselves and I suppose it only exists because we do ?

That play sounds like it could be an ? opener. What’s really been hitting me hard lately is the fact that everything we think we need to do is selfish no matter what kind of spin we put on it 

 

[DrewNows]

19 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@DrewNows well, yeah depends on the size of the self, probably.

not sure what you mean by this, do you mean collective self and what depends? 

@Charlotteseems impossible not to take our human prejudices out of viewing the lives of other species. I think you posted on activism a while back. I suppose it has pros and cons like everything but it seems actual suffering always stems from identification/attachment to a belief. Does being vegan give you a sense of identity? 

[Charlotte]

@DrewNows I genuinely accept what goes on with animals I do, it couldn't be any other way and I actually see that. It took me a while but I managed to accept it through love but at the same time I don't accept it to the point where I won't do anything about it. It seems like a counterintuitive comment I understand that. I am not suffering being vegan I would just like to make a change for the better.

[Charlotte]

2 hours ago, Michael569 said:

Acceptance does not equal ignorance and one can still take part in making the world a better place without becoming a bleeding heart and pain in the ass of other people. 

Egbloodyzactly. Couldn't of worded it better myself. ? 

[DrewNows]

All I’m sayin is we like to project our own suffering onto animals instead of trying to understand how they function/operate and behave. I was just listening to this podcast they we’re talking about how the Everglades python population has came into existence and skyrocketed  in the last 10-15 years and there are hardly an raccoons or small mammals left so they are going after gators now. One was ingesting a gator and the gator split the snake open and survived with the help of another gator. They commented how nature is so brutal. We humans can be naive enough to think we are above it all

 

[Charlotte]

@DrewNows I understand what you're saying dude, I do. I don't think we are above it all that's exactly my point. I zoom out and see ever-yth-ing as one. I perceive every being as the same, there is no hierarchy in my mind, no level's, no pyramid. 

2 hours ago, Michael569 said:

 this word thou

? 

[Charlotte]

Will update later. So glad to be back ?

[Charlotte]

I wondered why I was crying deeply and then I stopped wondering and I felt why...

 

I am crying at how beautiful life is. How beautiful everything is. Everything, absolutely everything is unbelievable and I can't describe how much love I feel in this moment. It is radiating throughout my entire being. I just want to share it with everything.

[Charlotte]

London was awesome by the way. 

Many many opportunities for personal growth. 

Everything is perfection.

[Charlotte]

This week... Wow. I can't even put it into words what's occuring/occured. Change... Definitely but in a way I cannot say, I cannot verbalise. I keep stopping and feeling this overwhelming love, joy and bliss. I don't wanna sound cliché and I know it can because we all seem to be using the same type of words to communicate this but it's so hard to put it into language. 

I'm starting to realise that I have HEAVILY underestimated... Actually... Not underestimated but... Maybe looking at things from a different paradigm might be the right word to use. I'm starting to question what the mind ACTUALLY is. Like on a deeper experiential level. I see I have been looking at some questions from the smallest of corners I could of. From the most limited perspective. Reality, life, god, whatever the fuck it is... Seems to be opening up right before me. Everything is growing in depth, width, breadth and height. 

The way I can possibly describe it is I feel I am not looking at life (reality) anymore from my small self. From my corner, from this one perspective, it's more holistic, deeper, more breathtaking perspective. I can't describe it. I wish I could. I close my eyes and breath, 'it' is there.... The perspective I speak of. 

Edit: don't know if this adds to anything but my own delusions and egoic needs lies and manipulations are literally appearing more and more in front of me everyday. 

[Charlotte]

@Nahm can you shine your perspective on this? ? ?

[Nahm]

 

1 hour ago, Charlotte said:

I can't describe it. I wish I could. I close my eyes and breath, 'it' is there.... The perspective I speak of. 

It’s not a perspective, though it is all perspectives. I can not describe ‘it’ either. The tongue can not taste itself. The finger can not point to itself.

The finite mind limits, though disappears in alignment, rather, unification. You could say you are ‘coming home’ - Remembering.

I can not find the distinction between Love, Truth and Beauty, nor between Joy & Laughter. ‘It’ is ‘here’ too, present, is all I can tell you. 

I want to tell everyone, but it is unbelievable. I want to give it to everyone, but they are already ‘it’. I want to share ‘it’, so I am reality. 

I will always however, be a Universe. That’s ok though, cause I can create delusion too.

 

[Charlotte]

@Nahm thank you so much Nahm ?

[Charlotte]

Today:

Microdosing and mission's

23°c outside. Upped the dosage again. Feel like a mission somewhere on my own. Let's see where it takes me ? 

[Charlotte]

4 minutes ago, now is forever said:

big tree hug ?

???

[Charlotte]

Do without thought. Be without thought. Be. 

Relinquish any effort of any sort