Spiral Dynamics Stage Green Examples Mega-Thread

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Then tell me, who is exactly judging/ restricting women? Men or Men + women ?

It's complicated. The restrictions are systemic, cultural, psychological, and sociological. Both men and women are involved without being conscious of it.

It's a bit like racism or slavery. It's not the fault of any one person. It's a massive widespread systemic problem which everyone is in denial about.

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How is there patriarchy in things like art , gaming.

Go study some feminist works. They will gives you a million examples. Those videos are giving you examples but you don't want to take that POV seriously.

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She could still get into a company , do her job. I think that is where mainly patriarchy is confined too.

You have no idea how sexist game developers would act towards her.

No, it's not confined to that. It's cultural too.

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But what would happen if women started to reverse  the situation ( I have no idea , and based on my experiences (of 21 years on earth) think nothinng will happen)

Things would be more fair for future generations of women. Society would become more representative and less oppressive.

8 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

I love murder, rape, gore, bullying, and all sorts of violence in art. I also loved executing random guys in manhunt game.

I still treat girls with respect in real life. I am gentle with them.

Sigh... you are hopeless, so end of conversation with you. Go contemplate. Or don't. I don't care.

[Joel3102]

Gotta admit TJ Kirk's response is pretty funny

[CreamCat]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sigh... you are hopeless, so end of conversation with you. Go contemplate. Or don't. I don't care.

Don't be sad. I still want anita sarkeesian to do her best in her life unlike guys who sent death threats to her.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

unlike guys who sent death threats to her.

Sorta proves the point, don't it?

Ever wonder why guys send her so many death threats? Maybe there's some collective shadow there? Some self-deception at work? Something overlooked?

Almost sounds like some patriarchy might exist that doesn't take kindly to being questioned, hmmmmm....

[Ibn Sina]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Things would be more fair for future generations of women. Society would become more representative and less oppressive.

Exactly,

Now if women could get  such benefits, then -

 why don't women do the same to men?

Why don't women make games that sexualize  men too?

That is what I meant by - reversing the situation (has nothing to with oppression or representative as you said)Women also being sexual towards men, what exactly would happen? Bunch of womenin bikini comikng to you saying "Come, let's go to bed :)" or being sexually open in public.

Aha!

That's my point.

Women cannot act promiscous, women cannot sexualize men. 

My point is, nature itself has made it that way, if women get promiscous then it is they who are putting the axe on their own foot.

You said-

Feminism is not confined just to corporation, but to art also.

My point is, patriarchy in art  is something that women can do nothing about unless men themselves become geneousunless men themselves restrict their  freedom.

While feminism in corporations is a different game. If women are competent then they can lead ( if there was no feminism is what I am saying ( don't  say- but there isn't, I am not saying there is).

I am saying those are 2 different kinds, and I am saying in the latter, women have  to potential to rise.

But in the former case,  no they don't.  That is the distinction that I am making.

If women start to sexualize men, then it's like they are putting axe on their own foot.

And in that sense I am saying feminism is only confined to corporations. In that sense.

( Of course now don't say, don't you know women can also rape men bla bla).

My point is, when it comes to such sexual behaviour, women cannot do much to improve then saying 'Please don't  do this', and whether men stop doing it or not that's irrelevant, the reins of power in this regard is still in men's hand. Because nature itself has made it that way. And that is my point. 

My point is also, women have to deal with it, yes we should make efforts to bring change, but it's better if women just spend time on doing their work and becoming more competent instead of saying gamers or cat callers 'Please don't sexualize us'.

Personally I don't do any such things, I a guy who only teases girls once she is open to me, all I am saying is trying to do such activities like taking out art, wanting a ' a culture of no woman sexualizing' is difficult and a waste of time for  her and  us. It's not the same thing as slavery. It's a different animal altogether. And that's my point.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[remember]

yeah mh what are you focusing on playing the game - the ass or killing the enemy? who is the enemy - oh well i don`t care i just want to kill. take that but hole out of the way.

Edited November 26, 2019 by remember

[CreamCat]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Ever wonder why guys send her so many death threats? Maybe there some shadow there? Some self-deception at work? Something overlooked? Or is that something a healthy mind does?

Although it can be complex, it can be as simple as the fact that those guys are screwing up their own lives. People who are screwed up inside tend to screw up outside.

There are ways to respond to external reality without feeling the need to kill someone who doesn't pose a violent threat.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

Exactly,

 and my question is, why don't women do the same to men?

Why don't women make games that sexualize  men too?

That is what I meant by - reversing the situation. Women also being sexual towards men, what exactly would happen?

Aha!

That's my point.

Women cannot act promiscous, women cannot sexualize men. 

My point is, nature itself has made it that way, if women get promiscous then it is they who are putting the axe on their own foot.

Nature plays a role, but you underestimate the extent to which we construct culture and "nature".

You might as well be saying that nature made black people slaves, therefore no problem. Shut up and go back to work.

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My point is, when it comes to such sexual behaviour, women cannot do much to improve then saying 'Please don't  do this', and whether men stop doing it or not that's irrelevant, the reins of power in this regard is still in men's hand.

And all that black people could do was demand to be freed. And here we are.

And all that Gandhi did was demand that the British Empire give India its sovereignty and stop exploiting it.

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Because nature itself has made it that way. And that is my point. 

Nature is anything which occurs. So your point is moot. Feminism is as much "nature" as patriarchy is. So who's version of "nature" will prevail? That's what this whole debate is about.

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My point is also, women have to deal with it, yes we should make efforts to bring change, but it's better if women just spend time on doing their work and becoming more competent instead of saying gamers or cat callers 'Please don't sexualize us'.

That's your opinion, and obviously many feminists disagree.

Don't forget, both can be done at the same time.

Asking women to "shut up and become more competent" before you give them respect is the very injustice and patriarchy which is in question. Why should women have to work extra hard to please you? Who are you to tell them what is right and what they must do in order to be treated as they feel is fair?

Maybe when a person tells you that she is being treated unfairly you should take it seriously rather than telling her to work harder and be more competent? Just a crazy thought.

[Ibn Sina]

 

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Asking women to become "shut up and become more competent" before you given them respect is the very injustice and patriarchy which we in question

No one owes respect to anyone. That's the reality, that's my point. 

In one of your videos , may be in conscious politics, you discussed that every one would be slaves if there was no government. And here you are 100% right. So I am guessing you do have an idea about human nature.

But what you have to see is that slavery and 'giving respect to women'/ not sexualizing women are completely different things.

Slavery is more unnatural. 

It is the literal restriction of the will of a person to live.

But sexualizing women in games, cat calling? That cannot at all be compared to slavery. 

I know it is a bad, dark, low consciousness force, but it is still a natural freedom. It does not kill women like slavery, it is not a social evil.

But rather restricting freedom, since you are an american I don't have to emphasize, is an evil.

Don't compare AT ALL such things with slavery.

Yes, on natural impulse people also murder, on Lions eat deer,

but the main point is , to have wisdom to properly demarcate  the line.

You are drawing the lining on a much  higher, idealistic level, and so do communists, making it unhumanitarian.

While the line should be drawn lower, there should be a good balance between human freedom and chaos of nature. 

You cannot put too upward, or too downward.

It's like if Lion came to eat, would you say, hey lion please don't eat us? no.
Of course, I am not saying the natural impulses should overflow, but there should be a good balance.

That is where you and I differ. You are putting the line much higher.

54 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Maybe when a person tells you that she is being treated unfairly you should take it seriously rather than telling her to work harder and be more competent? Just a crazy thought

If she is being treated unfairly.

If she says- they are putting video games which are sexualizing women, I'll say- go back to work.

If she says- I am being underpaid, or harassed, raped, discriminated, I'll be there for her.

That's the line that I am talking about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2019 by Ibn Sina

[CreamCat]

@Ibn Sina Anything that happens is nature. Leo Gura is nature. You are nature. Seemingly unnatural things are also natural.

[mandyjw]

32 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

My point is also, women have to deal with it, yes we should make efforts to bring change, but it's better if women just spend time on doing their work and becoming more competent instead of saying gamers or cat callers 'Please don't sexualize us'.

The purpose of this thread is to share examples of stage green, and here you are suggesting that women would be better off by reverting to stage orange values and focusing on work.

Edited November 26, 2019 by mandyjw

[CreamCat]

Reverting or revisiting? Revisiting Orange doesn't mean you give up higher stages. We all need to revisit lower stages frequently. It's not just Orange that you need to revisit. You also need to revisit Beige, Purple, etc, ...

By all means, do what you want. If you want equality, pursue it. Do your best, and prosper. Good luck.

Edited November 26, 2019 by CreamCat

[Apparition of Jack]

@Ibn Sina Let's say I take enjoyment out of making fun of people. In fact I do it so much that I do it to everyone I meet. And not just playful teasing, but straight up cruel mockery. 

Obviously a lot of people would get hurt by my behaviour, right? People would call me out and want to get me to stop. What you're essentially saying is "Why should I care about the people I hurt? I benefit from mocking people, so why should I stop?" 

And just to reinforce the point, maybe I come from a powerful group of people where mocking others is seen as a sign of wit and prestige. When people start to question my behaviour, I just say "But it's natural to mock others. That's just the way it is."

Obviously the point is that it's not "just the way it is," it's instead a set of behaviours I have been taught from the power dynamics around me and want to keep these dynamics going. All the mental and psychological damage I cause from insulting people doesn't matter to me, when really in a more conscious society it would. 

[Ibn Sina]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The purpose of this thread is to share examples of stage green, and here you are suggesting that women would be better off by reverting to stage orange values and focusing on work

Lol, no

this is my opinion on the matter-

As green, women should do all the things that green people do.  

Plant trees, fight injustices bla bla.
My point is, doing those things like wiping out ads because that would make girls feel self conscious, shouldn't be done, I don't think it is 'green' it's ego feeling insecure.

As green, women should fight for equality in patriarchy , in buisness etc.

As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misundersdand.

 But 'not getting respect' that is not injustice. That is just people not liking her. No one owes anything to her.

'Injustice' in a legal court sense is one thing, 'not getting respect' 'cat calling' is completing different thing. This is the difference that I see, but many people here don't.

[Ibn Sina]

6 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Let's say I take enjoyment out of making fun of people. In fact I do it so much that I do it to everyone I meet. And not just playful teasing, but straight up cruel mockery. 

Obviously a lot of people would get hurt by my behaviour, right? People would call me out and want to get me to stop. What you're essentially saying is "Why should I care about the people I hurt? I benefit from mocking people, so why should I stop?" 

And just to reinforce the point, maybe I come from a powerful group of people where mocking others is seen as a sign of wit and prestige. When people start to question my behaviour, I just say "But it's natural to mock others. That's just the way it is."

Obviously the point is that it's not "just the way it is," it's instead a set of behaviours I have been taught from the power dynamics around me and want to keep these dynamics going. All the mental and psychological damage I cause from insulting people doesn't matter to me, when really in a more conscious society it would. 

 

Do you even fully read what I write? Or do you just react whenever you read something you don't like without fully understanding?

Go read the line about- ' having the wisdom to demarcate the line'. I have already addressed what you are saying.

[mandyjw]

10 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

As green, women should fight for equality in patriarchy , in buisness etc.

As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misundersdand.

 But 'not getting respect' that is not injustice. That is just people not liking her. No one owes anything to her.

 

You're trying to get women to submit to doing their best to survive in a game that's rigged against them. Of course some women are gonna upset the game board, throw the cards in your face and storm off. You would too.

If everyone agrees to play A MORE FAIR GAME and it will be more fun for everyone. 

[Ibn Sina]

Just now, mandyjw said:

You're trying to get women to submit to doing their best to survive in a game that's rigged against them. Of course some women are gonna upset the game board, throw the cards in your face and storm off. You would too.

If everyone agrees to play A MORE FAIR GAME and it will be more fun for everyone. 

You have not understood  what I am saying. If you want  to believe that that is what I am saying then that's okay. But I won't add anything simply because that is not what I am saying  and you have not gone through the labour of understanding what I am saying.

[Forestluv]

“As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misunderstand.”

This is a great example of blue/orange resisting green. And it was spoken from a man to a women, which adds in three scoops of green cringe. 

[Ibn Sina]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

“As green, women should let men live the way they want to live  unless there is some dire injustice upon them. Read this line 3 times, or you might misunderstand.”

This is a great example of blue/orange resisting green. And it was spoken from a man to a women, which adds in three scoops of green cringe. 

Here we go again with my friend Serotoninluv with whom I have had some great  discussions in the  past and I know his style.

How is thisa blue resisting green?Please explain. Let's brush up on my spiral dynamics knowledge.

[mandyjw]

17 minutes ago, Ibn Sina said:

You have not understood  what I am saying. If you want  to believe that that is what I am saying then that's okay. But I won't add anything simply because that is not what I am saying  and you have not gone through the labour of understanding what I am saying.

Well this was a waste of 20 minutes that COULD have been spent doing butt shaping exercises, and really getting me somewhere in life.