Enlightenment Sickness

[Faceless]

11 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

So how does this theory affect your life? Do you embody this theory, or is it purely conceptual truth to you?

Remeber there can never be embodiment in accordance to a theory/abstraction....As that implies duality. 

If we explore inwardly very deep this will become quite obvious. 

Its a theory to anyone who sees it abstractly (not in ones self) 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Faceless

[Joseph Maynor]

10 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Remeber there can never be embodiment in accordance to a theory/abstraction....As that implies duality. 

If we explore inwardly very deep this will become quite obvious. 

Its a theory to anyone who sees it abstractly (not in ones self) 

Then what’s the point of your theory?  That theory is dual, right?  Aren’t  you asking us to take your dual theory seriously?  See the problem?  This is like saying — “jump, don’t jump”.  If you’re pointing to being, I get that.  But I think you’re carving out a little bubble of duality for yourself to hide in.  

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Faceless]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Aren’t  you asking us to take your dual theory seriously?

No Just to simply investigate yourself. In this investigation all ideas are negated and the fact reveals itself. 

Facts are where embodiment arises, not ideas. 

This must be seen for oneself. I only can invoke interest. Point to. 

Point to the necessity of exploring oneself free of ones own accumulated bias and prejudices. And the suspension of (choice influenced by that same movement of self) 

All this can be found within one own inward being. No need to bring abstraction into this. As that is the very root of the problem

Edited June 13, 2018 by Faceless

[Joseph Maynor]

6 minutes ago, Etagnwo said:

Exactly. 

Back to square one. This is the dream. As soon as you think a thought or open your mouth were talking double talk. That's why you need to consult the teaching 

No, square-one is not even seeing the problem.  Fully understanding and embodying ‘being comes before thought’ is not square one.  Relying on traditional teachings has its own set of traps.  

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Faceless]

We can only point to the significance of understanding the self. That’s it. Not according to ideas and so on. As that is understanding oneself according to the past (thought) 

which is not understanding oneself at all. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Faceless

[Joseph Maynor]

6 minutes ago, Faceless said:

We can only point to the significance of understanding the self. That’s it. Not according to ideas and so on. As that is understanding oneself according to the past (thought) 

which is not understanding oneself at all. 

Then why all the discussion?  Shouldn’t you be away from this place then, with that philosophy?  Why chatter away all day long if it’s all dual nonsense?  Why not just meditate with that time instead?  I’m curious?  You’re here, so you must get some value out of using all these dual words.  Your actions aren’t lining up with your beliefs.  Now, is the problem with your actions or your beliefs?

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Faceless]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Then why all the discussion?  Shouldn’t you be away from this place then, with that philosophy?

There is no philosophy. That is the point. It’s seeing the futility of philosophical conceptualization. 

Just sharing with others the significance of self understanding. 

To point out contradictions and invoke interests that may bring about a more direct approach. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Faceless

[Joseph Maynor]

1 hour ago, Faceless said:

There is no philosophy. That is the point. It’s seeing the futility of philosophical conceptualization. 

Just sharing with others the significance of self understanding. 

To point out contradictions that may bring about a more direct approach. 

So, you’re trying to help other people with their Enlightenment by using dual concepts like the theory you presented me with?  You might wanna express that theory in a way that people can more readily understand, because it went over my head.  As a teacher, you should be focused on how your teachings are impacting students.  If it’s just going over people’s heads, that’s no good.  And it’s on you to fix that, not the fault of your students.  It’s never a good idea to blame the student for not understanding you.  Great teachers explain the basics very well.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Joseph Maynor]

6 minutes ago, Etagnwo said:

Nobody can embody being..the best we can do is assume the role of the self because we had the experience of the self's pov 

You will never embody being. It's a physical impossibility because the state is only an experience that is in time and ends. For some experience of being can last year's. But in the end it ceases to be and the person snaps out of his enlightenment delusion. 

What ‘embody being’ points to.  

BE-ing.  Knowing how to separate Awareness from thought-stories too.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Ananta]

Seems to me that @Faceless is referring to what Eckhart Tolle would call the "power of Now" (but he uses Krishnamurti terms and style).

The problem, imo, with this is that once you're in the "now", then now what? You can't stay there indefinately and when you start using thoughts and memory again to function in the world you'll think you "lost" your "presence".

Yeah, it just doesn't work to seal the deal, imo. You need Self-knowledge to remove ignorance of your true nature, as the Self/awareness.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Anna1

[Faceless]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Knowing how to separate Awareness from thought-stories too.

This is a movement of thought/self/duality 

The knower who seperates awarness from thought stories. 

Dualistic movement of a doer using volition to satisfy its own compulsion and to satisfy desire in the pursuit of pleasure, gratification, satisfaction. 

Perpetual seeking the illusionary nature of psychological time.

 

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, Faceless said:

This is a movement of thought/self/duality 

The knower who seperates awarness from thought stories. 

Dualistic movement of a doer using volition to satisfy its own compulsion and to satisfy desire in the pursuit of pleasure, gratification, satisfaction. 

Perpetual seeking the illusionary nature of psychological time.

 

No.  It what that language points to.  Do a Do Nothing Meditation sit and you will become conscious of the difference between awareness and thought-stories.  It’s something that one discovers through meditation and/or psychedelics. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Faceless]

as @Anna1said

The problem, imo, with this is that once you're in the "now", then now what? You can't stay there indefinately and when you start using thoughts and memory again to function in the world you'll think you "lost" your "presence".

 

 

Its to simply use thought when it is needed. And when we don’t need thought, there is no need for thought. 

There is absolutely no need for thought psychologically. Thought is a tool. When we are not using that tool. Why the need for it to keep operating. Freedom is only freedom when thought does not compulsively enter into the psychological realm. 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Faceless

[Faceless]

Can you observe free of the knower and all its accumulated content (the past). This is the beauty of living. 

To be headless

To observer without the movement of the becoming or not becoming, outwardly and inwardly. 

To be choicelessly passive (without any compulsion to choose as the chooser) as Krishnamurti has discussed before.  

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Faceless

[Joseph Maynor]

4 minutes ago, Faceless said:

as @Anna1said

The problem, imo, with this is that once you're in the "now", then now what? You can't stay there indefinately and when you start using thoughts and memory again to function in the world you'll think you "lost" your "presence".

 

 

Its to simply use thought when it is needed. And when we don’t need thought, there is no need for thought. 

There is absolutely no need for thought psychologically. Thought is a tool. When we are not using that tool. Why the need for it to keep operating. Freedom is only freedom when thought does not compulsively enter into the psychological realm. 

I actually resonate with this somewhat.  I think you got a good insight here to further refine.  But your other theory was much harder to make heads or tails of.

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Faceless said:

Can you observe free of the knower. This is the beauty of living. 

To be headless

Being comes before thought-stories.  ‘The knower’ is a thought-story.  Awareness is not observation, it’s what the word ‘BE-ing’ points to.  Do a Do Nothing Meditation sit and see for yourself what BE-ing is.  BE-ing is not a meaning, it’s not conceptual.  We all get that.

[Faceless]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Do a Do Nothing Meditation sit and see for yourself what BE-ing is.

If there is no movement of the knower/the known/thought/the thinker, what does that imply Joseph? 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Faceless

[Joseph Maynor]

7 minutes ago, Etagnwo said:

 you think you're the first person to do this? 

Trips, dzogchen techniques?

This has all been documented in the vedas.  It's all nonsense and at worst nothing but a wild goose chase and at best "preparation" for the no dual truth that is recorded at the end of the vedas. That there is no enlightenment in an experience. 

Yep.  What you might do is create a modern teaching to help people become Enlightened, why not do that?  We don’t ride around in horse and buggys anymore.  This is the Information Age and there’s no need to rely on old Enlightenment teachings just because they’re old.  There are people who are Enlightened today who create teachings in today’s terms.  There’s a lot of BS in those old teachings.  Lots of places to get tripped up.

Edited June 13, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Faceless]

Do nothing implies no movement of will, desire, volition which is all the movement of the self/thought. 

[Ananta]

@Faceless Ok, I get what you're saying. No offense, but it's very beginner level to me. If you spoke in a more straight forward manner, regularly, on your posts people could understand you better.

Anyways, I'm awareness! Thoughts are me, but I'm not my thoughts. This is discriminated in the intellect. There's me (awareness) and there's thoughts with me. They come and go. It makes no difference to me. It's a matter of do I identify with them..or not. If I do, well that can be a problem. If I dont, no problem at all. 

Thought is not the enemy. Psychological thought comes from identification as a person and not your true nature. So, telling peeps to stop psychological thought without them knowing their true nature isn't going to work, imo.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2018 by Anna1