Either you are enlightened or not enlightened

[Stardog]

So to be clear, you are arguing that enlightenment-which at its core can be described as a transcendence of dualistic concepts- is itself a dualistic concept, i.e. a person is either Enlightened or Unenlightened? This strikes me as a paradox. If enlightenment is a realization of nonduality, then how can you apply dualistic concepts to it?

I vastly prefer the Buddhist description of enlightenment (or at least the one that Thich Naht Hanh uses in his writings). You are already enlightened. Everything that encompasses enlightenment is already within you, the process that we think of as enlightenment is just the process of pealing back the layers of ego, mindlessness and other bull that prevent us from recognizing our "inherent" enlightenment. This removes the dualistic nature of enlightened vs. unenlightened, but what I really like is that it removes the idea of "achieving" enlightenment from the equation. It turns it into something you "realize" instead. This solves the problem of applying dualistic thought to something that by its very nature is nondual, because there is no distinction. An unenlightened person doesn't become enlightened, rather enlightenment itself is a never ending state of becoming more enlightened.

Long story short, I like Leo's way of presenting enlightenment as something with stages. It helps limit dualistic thinking and emphasizes enlightenment as a process, while still acknowledging progress along the path. Just my two cents.

[Shanmugam]

11 minutes ago, Stardog said:

So to be clear, you are arguing that enlightenment-which at its core can be described as a transcendence of dualistic concepts- is itself a dualistic concept, i.e. a person is either Enlightened or Unenlightened? This strikes me as a paradox. If enlightenment is a realization of nonduality, then how can you apply dualistic concepts to it?

I vastly prefer the Buddhist description of enlightenment (or at least the one that Thich Naht Hanh uses in his writings). You are already enlightened. Everything that encompasses enlightenment is already within you, the process that we think of as enlightenment is just the process of pealing back the layers of ego, mindlessness and other bull that prevent us from recognizing our "inherent" enlightenment. This removes the dualistic nature of enlightened vs. unenlightened, but what I really like is that it removes the idea of "achieving" enlightenment from the equation. It turns it into something you "realize" instead. This solves the problem of applying dualistic thought to something that by its very nature is nondual, because there is no distinction. An unenlightened person doesn't become enlightened, rather enlightenment itself is a never ending state of becoming more enlightened.

Long story short, I like Leo's way of presenting enlightenment as something with stages. It helps limit dualistic thinking and emphasizes enlightenment as a process, while still acknowledging progress along the path. Just my two cents.

There is a reason why they say that silence is the best teaching. It is actually a pointer. Because, no matter how certain things about enlightenment is conveyed, there are always ways to find fault with it. That happens when it approached intellectually..

There are stages for sure in the progress. But they are not different levels of enlightenment. The truth is still the same. Either you are living in duality or non-duality. There is no partial non-duality. It is also true that the idea of enlightenment itself is within the illusion. Since you think you are bound, we have to give you a concept of liberation. You will find many verses in Vedanta which says 'I am neither in bondage nor liberated'...:) Enlightenment is also within the thought story, but it is the climax. The thought story ends with enlightenment. Anyway, whatever teaching really resonates with you, just go ahead with that.

[SgtPepper]

Breaking the duality forever huh? I have had many non-dual experiences, but I eventually allow myself to slip back into ego because that is the game human life is playing. Is that not what all of you do? What would my non-dual experiences do for "others" if "they" have not experienced it. 

I am able to move between these levels of reality so to speak on a whim. It is impossible to not see things as non-dual since boundaries are created by the mind and the mind is not the ground, if you feel me on that. And as I do more consciousness work I feel non-duality deepen each year a little more. Not sure if this means I had an enlightenment experience and now I am "maturing" it like Osho says, but if I am wrong, thats fine. 

I do not imagine its helpful to be neurotic about reaching such a state since I am not in control, but I enjoy meditation and connecting with Being.

[Shanmugam]

11 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

Breaking the duality forever huh? I have had many non-dual experiences, but I eventually allow myself to slip back into ego because that is the game human life is playing. Is that not what all of you do? 

 

I have done it many times when I was a seeker. Whenever there was resistance from the ego, I did allow the ego to slip in and take a break for a couple of days or even more. That was actually a routine for me. As long as you know what you are doing and are aware of it, it is not a problem.

Edited February 7, 2018 by Shanmugam

[Shanmugam]

@SgtPepper But there is a point when you drop the story completely.. It is not something that you do, it happens...

[SgtPepper]

40 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

@SgtPepper But there is a point when you drop the story completely.. It is not something that you do, it happens...

but wouldn't you eventually come back to the ego game? Eat food, talk with family, laugh at jokes, listen to music not because there is anything to achieve, but because it fits ego life. It's all "I" know how to do. 

During an a non-dual experience, I was playing guitar and as I became more conscious of non-duality, it felt like I knew who I was, but I did not know simultaneously. What was "I" suppose to do at the submission of all that is? I just kept playing guitar with my heart containing feelings of joy and sadness, the only thing my monkey ass knew to do. lol.

In my experience, ego resists in the beginning but eventually stops and if anything finds solace in non-duality, but eventually "my mother" is like Hello Sgtpepper, ego just goes ahead and plays along. On the path, there is great focus on dropping the ego, but in my experience, ego is part of non-duality and is meant to be played out. 

I guess the danger is eventually getting too sucked into ego and identifying with the story too much. 

Still, I do not want to get over my head. I believe Leo when he says that this field is deeper than we think/see

Edited February 7, 2018 by SgtPepper
minor elaboration

[Forestluv]

57 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

It all boils down to one thing.. There are two kinds of people who are seeking enlightenment.

One group is seeking enlightenment for wrong reasons.. They seek enlightenment because they see it as an achievement, the peek of self-improvement, the peek of knowing everything, an opportunity to impress people, an opportunity to become guru,  have an 'enlightened' self-image etc etc.. you name it. They will be fooling themselves for their entire life. No matter what teaching is given to them, they will simply find a loophole through which the thought story can re-enter and assert its existence.

The other group of people seeks enlightenment because they know that it is the only way out. Their seeking is true that they will somehow find their way out. They will learn from everything, including a fake guru. They did not choose to seek, but seeking chose them. 

 

I resonate more with the second group. I find myself being pulled toward this process. I've entered nonduality - usually with psychedelics and a few glimpses without. 

One question on your phrase "they know that it is the only way out". I've had awareness/realization that what my self wants will not materialize or be fulfilled. All the hopes, desires, intentions, planning, goal setting and actions will never "arrive". Yet, my mind-body often behaves otherwise. My mind engages in thinking like "As soon as xyz, then. . . ", If she would just xyz, then. . . ". "If I had just said xyz, then she wouldn't be upset with me". As well, when I sense distance with my girlfriend, my body produces neurotransmitters and hormones. I yearn to hold her. I feel anxiety that I may not hold her and feel the intimacy again, there is fear she may leave. My blood becomes more acidic, I feel pain in my gut. I interpret her actions and inactions as signs she is losing interest in me. I desire reassurance to settle the insecurity. I feel motivated to please her.

People advise me to "set boundaries", "to develop better communication", "to take care of myself", "to articulate what I need in the relationship". This can be tempting as "The Way Out" of uncomfortable feelings and suffering. Yet, sometimes I'm aware The Story is the issue and that my self is trying to get something, somewhere that doesn't exist. That the loss of The Story is "The Way Out", Yet, in spite of this The Story and associated feelings continue - even when I am aware it's just The Story. 

What is the next stage? To just be aware of The Story and all it's thoughts and feelings? Or to focus on the illusionary nature of the self and Story to reduce the strength of The Story?

[Shanmugam]

@Serotoninluv There has to be a right balance.. Even though you know that achieving something in the life is not going to offer lasting fulfillment, it doesn't mean that you should resist the temptations. The spiritual path is not life negative, it will not work that way in modern times. But fortunately, life and spiritual path can be integrated. Then whatever you do in your life becomes a spiritual practice. Read the books of Osho, I think it may help you a lot. 

Lot of sufferings that people go through is unavoidable. But existence always blesses equally with beautiful moments. You always need to remember that it will pass, whenever the times are hard. Also, when you are listening to or reading one teacher, it is better to not listen to another teacher. You may get confused. I spent about three years in reading only the books of Osho. Once I got some understanding, I checked out the talks of Ramana Maharshi and others.. It actually helped me tremendously, because the foundation I got from Osho was strong.

Yet, I did face the issues similar to what you have been facing in relationships. I sucked at any kind of relationships including forming friendships. Only after enlightenment, I found the secret key to make anyone to like you or be with you. The secret is a cliched teaching but people don't realize the power of it and I was one of them too. The secret is 'listening to them'.. After enlightenment, the desire to speak, give my opinions and talk about myself disappeared. But I didn't expect that it would make a lot of people to respect me and share their most guarded secrets with me. Many things I wanted to achieve happened when I no longer sought them. .

Please go through this post:

 

[Shanmugam]

31 minutes ago, SgtPepper said:

but wouldn't you eventually come back to the ego game? Eat food, talk with family, laugh at jokes, listen to music not because there is anything to achieve, but because it fits ego life. It's all "I" know how to do. 

 

What is stopping anyone from eating food, talking with family, laughing at jokes or listening to music etc? It doesn't have to be an ego game. You can do all with even more involvement after enlightenment. The life doesn't change. It is the same life. There is a difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Do not go for jogging to reduce weight, go for jogging because you enjoy doing it. The results will be the same but you will enjoy doing what you are doing.

[Nahm]

@Shanmugam It seems to me people are each coming from their relative past. The path forward is the undoing of the relative path up until they decide to pursue spirituality. The meeting them where they’re at, I suck at that, but that’s the way to help. Ester Hicks seems to have mastered this. I think I understand what you’re saying, that it’s either seeking truth, or feeding ego. Ever since experiencing absolute, I just want to help people with suffering. It’s a win win to me...love that is. 

[Nahm]

@SgtPepper From your pic, you don’t mind some shrooms once and a while. Have you experienced absolute yet?

[Timotheus]

12 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Ever since experiencing absolute, I just want to help people with suffering. It’s a win win to me...love that is. 

This sounds kinda terrifying to me, but at the same time very beautiful..

Edited February 7, 2018 by Timotheus

[Shin]

1 minute ago, Timotheus said:

This sounds kinda terrifying to me, but at the same time very beautiful..

How is that terrifying ?

[Timotheus]

@Shin Absolute infinity to me, also means infinite suffering

[Shin]

Just now, Timotheus said:

@Shin Absolute infinity to me, also means infinite suffering

Well yeah, but you won't experience that.

If you're talking about the dark night of the soul, not everyone goes through this (from what I read).

[Nahm]

@Timotheus How so? Where you coming from on that? Terrifying, in the sense, you will go through all of your fears to experience it? Or do you think the absolute is terrifying? 

[Timotheus]

2 minutes ago, Shin said:

Well yeah, but you won't experience that.

 How can you be so sure? You are everything

[Timotheus]

1 minute ago, Nahm said:

@Timotheus How so? Where you coming from on that? Terrifying, in the sense, you will go through all of your fears to experience it? Or do you think the absolute is terrifying? 

I think the absolute might also be quite terrifying. Terrifying things are happening on the earth, but I don't even want to imagine what kind of suffering is possible on other planes of existence.. Seeing an infinite amount of suffering also would move me to help eliminate suffering. 

[Nahm]

@Timotheus WHere did the ‘infinite amount of suffering’ idea come from?

[SOUL]

@Shanmugam  So if I have a different personal experience of it than you say it is are you going to tell me I'm "not"?