Zen Devilry

[How to be wise]

Can someone with a permanent state of non-dual awareness become a zen-devil? 

[Markus]

Depends on what you mean by non-dual awareness, because there are different definitions. I would presume you mean a person who is either self-realized (no Iness left) or in unity consciousness (inner and outer being one). I don't think so in either case. Zen Devils are people who've had awakenings or enlightenment experiences but aren't really enlightened.

[Brimstone]

@How to be wise without judgement, and from the heart, it's an interesting question, and one I have been asking myself the past 24 hrs. The thought arose, and the heart confirmed, that there is definitely a shadow and light aspect in the aftermath of Self Realisation, in that you have direct experience of who you truthfully are, and that who you thought you were is just an illusion

The shadow aspect although realising there is no me, returns to an I perspective after realisation. The thought I am enlightened is a sure sign that the shadow aspect is at play. Despite realising there is no I the shadow aspect hasn't completely removed the I from the centre and as such still lives in the world of judgement and positioning, thinking along the lines of there is only I. A good example of this is Ram Dass. Very switched on dude, who knew what was going on, but he identified with his I and believed his hype too much. His life story will point towards the results of the shadow aspect.

The light aspect is whereby the I has been completely removed. They live as our natural state being Absolute bliss and happiness, and have an acceptance of the order of all. It is a point of no resistance, and acceptance and is a direct reflection of the Absolute. The perfect example is Sri Ramana Maharishi, who didn't identify with the I at all. 

Both have a place in the divine order, with yin and yang a great representation of both aspects as one. The light still has a touch of darkness, being the appearance of a person and a mind in the case of the enlightened, the darkness still has a touch of the light, which is the realisation The One. Both come from a base of unknowing, which once realised can never be unknown as it is all That is. The enlightened will wait for you to ask and act based off what was asked letting pure and clear thoughts arise naturally from the heart, the shadow aspect will tell you what the Truth is without anyone asking.

I have experienced both states, with the "I have" aspect a very clear indicator that I am at a point of self realisation, not enlightenment at the moment. 

Here is the thing though, there is no devil refering back to your question, there is only That, it doesn't favour either the dark or the light side, which is what makes the light 'enlightened'. 

Don't worry all is well as at the end of the day That is the source of it all.

Hope this is helpful

Edited October 17, 2017 by Brimstone

[Natasha]

12 hours ago, How to be wise said:

Can someone with a permanent state of non-dual awareness become a zen-devil? 

I would say they can, if their ego isn't properly integrated. 

[Brimstone]

Another good analogy for a zen devil is a christian who will act from a base of love and humility when within the church community, then go and spit on a young girl who is going to have an abortion because they do not have the same core beliefs.

That is love beyond ALL conditions without question.

25 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

It is a self-righteous realization.
 

I laughed at the discomfort of this as well as the identifying with the self-righteous nature of the comment itself 

[Markus]

@Martin123 Yeah but the one who shall not be named wasn't even enlightened, until a few weeks ago. Just awakened. Awakening doesn't deserve the label enlightenment in my opinion. Only when there's a permanent shift to oneness with the self is one enlightened.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Markus

[How to be wise]

@Markus @Brimstone @Natasha @Martin123 When I watched Leo's episode 'what's wrong with ego' he listed every 'bad' thing that people do and said that it was all because of ego. But someone with a permanent enlightenment no longer has an ego, so where do the bad stuff come from then. 

[Toby]

@How to be wise because of patterns aka "vasanas" that are unresolved in them. Prime examples are teachers (e.g. Muktananda, Adi Da) that are "enlightened" but are/were abusing their "students" sexually, physically or emotionally.

[How to be wise]

4 minutes ago, Toby said:

@How to be wise because of patterns aka "vasanas" that are unresolved in them. Prime examples are teachers (e.g. Muktananda, Adi Da) that are "enlightened" but are/were abusing their "students" sexually, physically or emotionally.

What do you mean by unresolved patterns?

Edited October 18, 2017 by How to be wise

[Leo Gura]

@How to be wise Enlightenment will not remove every selfish tendency deeply wired in your mind.

Far, far from it.

[Toby]

mental, emotional, behavioural patterns that are not brought to peace and are running unconsciously in someone. doesn't matter how exactly you call it.

[Brimstone]

@How to be wise you have got to be careful as there is a big difference between self realisation and enlightenment. If you look to the true teachers who have passed through the gateless gate they will tell you of the dangers. Adyashanti for example is offering an online course through the open gate sangha addressing this very issue in November. Mooji also speaks about it in a recent video. There is a good post in this forum called Mind Returns or something.

Another story that points to this problem is Herman Hesse Sidartha. He became self realised, thought he was enlightened, entered the world and lived for himself, before finally finding enlightenment by the river.

Enlightenment is the complete dissolution of the ego, and destruction of the tap root. In that state Absolute love, humility, compassion, peace, happiness etc is the outward manifestation as That is the source of all is full realised as your being. You are not that, cause how could anyone of us really be God, there is just no you to stand in the way of the true light of Loving Purity shining through you. That is true enlightenment, to become a reflection of divine love without boundaries and basically while boundaries remain the ego is still in the game, and you are a zen devil.

Bonaparte is another example of self realisation. He offered so much hope to many in the last Age of Enlightenment, but at the end of the day he delivered so little. Why? Because he had himself at the centre so his end game was only ever about satisfying his own ego.

From the heart

Edited October 18, 2017 by Brimstone

[Markus]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

@Markus @Brimstone @Natasha @Martin123 When I watched Leo's episode 'what's wrong with ego' he listed every 'bad' thing that people do and said that it was all because of ego. But someone with a permanent enlightenment no longer has an ego, so where do the bad stuff come from then. 

Simply realizing the self isn't gonna cut it. You can become enlightened and stop suffering, but selfish tendencies will remain intact. Some will dissolve over time on their own, others need work or Kundalini process.

[Brimstone]

@Markus from one ego to another we have a difference of opinion as I do not see how one can have selfish tendencies when the ego has been completely and utterly dissolved.

But you know what, that is ok.

From the heart

Edited October 18, 2017 by Brimstone

[Markus]

Just now, Brimstone said:

@Markus we have a difference of opinion as I do not see how one can have selfish tendencies when the ego has been completely and utterly dissolved.

But you know what, that is ok.

From the heart

Enlightenment as itself does not completely and utterly dissolve the ego. It causes you to disidentify with it but it will still hang around. If you define ego as identification, that will disappear with enlightenment. But the ego structure will still remain and you can still behave selfishly without identifications. The ego structure will never completely dissolve because that would make functioning impossible. Unnecessary parts of the ego structure will dissolve over time however once identification is gone. There's no guarantee though, it's just a general tendency.

[Brimstone]

@Markus I see what you are saying and to be honest I used to think that enlightenment was exactly what you are saying, but today I just do not see how one can possibly have any selfish tendancies if the ego is completely and utterly dissolved. The ego is selfish, the Heart is not.

As I said though that is just 2 egos pushing against each other, both conditioned by That from a base of pure unconditional loving purity and I am sincerely ok with your position. To be honest though I do not see it serving either of us by continuing to enter into disagreements about who is right or wrong, because as we both know, there is no right or wrong, although how could any of us ever possibly be right in the face of That. At the end of the day, like everyone, you are perfect just the way you are.

From the heart

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Brimstone

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura @Toby @Brimstone @Markus @Maxx Then why don't people feel selfish when they are tripping on dmt. If dmt is showing you enlightenment, and you say that enlightenment doesn't remove your selfish patterns, then is it possible to trip and still feel 'selfish' emotions. 

[Markus]

@How to be wise A DMT trip is a DMT trip. It is a specific experience which can involve temporary ego dissolution. So while on it your personality or ego structure is gone partially or completely. With enlightenment the personality or ego structure remains, you simply step out of it.

[Nahm]

@Martin123 Just a ?? Shout out....I did some research inspired by this post, and I find your explanation / meaning of zen devil to be the most insightful & useable. Nice work as always Martin. I had an insight, or just a clarity of how simple it really is. We ‘think’ we’re something. We meditate to non thinking. We’re love. The nothing & nihilism are just the experience of being inbetween. 

[Blue is the sea]

@How to be wise enlightenment is about truth. it's not about becoming a better or happier person. at least that's my current understanding. maybe they are by product

Edited October 19, 2017 by Blue is the sea