Draining Debates And Open-mindedness

[Charl]

Yesterday I had a discussion with a good friend of mine. She showed me a video politics/news video and after a while I felt as if the politainment industries isn't really aligned with truth and is more ego stroking, as in it does not develop your political view but rather distracts you and keeps you unopen to new information. Since she watches a lot of politainment we got into a debate. Her view is that your political view is one of the most important things in your life and is the most effective thing concerning impact (through voting, demonstrating, etc). I said that life purpose as in your profession would be the most effective tool, while that could of course be in the field of politics. I just think that if politics is not a top 10 value of yours you shouldn't get distracted by that. Since we criticized each other at the core both of us felt really hurt. Now to my question. I do not know how I should have handled the situation better. I could have just said nothing but it does not feel healthy to me to stop talking about meaning things just because you have a different opinion. Should I have been more open-minded? I told her that I absolutely understand her point of view but at the same time I just know that people underestimate the impact your life purpose makes. I have difficulties being open-minded when I know that I put more time researching in something than someone else. Like if I learn that enlightenment exists and then I debate with someone whether it can happen or not, I'll stop listening to their arguments when I realize they didn't research it. So how do I stop unnecessary debates while maintaining 'deep talks' with friends? And how do I stay open-minded while valuing my own research? 

[Leo Gura]

@Charl It's simple. Don't enter debates. When they start, leave.

[Charl]

@Leo Gura That's probably the best thing to do. I don't think wasting your time with politics is a good thing to do so I shouldn't waste my time giving unsolicited advise. Thanks for the clear response. 

[Erlend K]

Personly I have been deeply ineressted in politics since early adolecens. I love discussing and arguing for my views, but also love discovering new ideas that contradics my own and helps make my views more nuanced and precise. Luckely I have friends who are the same, and we have a lot of fun discussing. These are typicaly the most intelectualy stimulating conversations we have. 

If you don't enjoy, or get intelectual stimulation from discussing politics, then it's a waste of time and energy to do so.

The way to stay open minded, while valuing your own research is to avoid getting your ego entangled in needing your exising views to be right. Accept that politics is emensebly complicated and the information you have is just a tiny piece of the whole. Whatever conclusion you make based on your limited information might not make sense when seen in light of information you are missing. It's by gaining this extra information and adapting your views to it that your political perspectiv evolves and matures. 

[Joseph Maynor]

You can discuss and debate, but hold your positions loosely and don't have your identity tied-up with your views or arguments.  You shouldn't be getting worked-up in a discussion.  That's really the test.  And always assume that the other person could be right.  Try and learn something about why they believe the opposite from you.  That's fascinating.  That's human variance going on there.  Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle anyway -- in some ethereal space betwixt and between your two positions.  Humility really is a virtue, but don't be afraid to argue.  For one thing, it's damn fun and funny sometimes too.  It's better than watching flies fornicate or watching television even.  It's probably better than half the internet stuff we do on a daily basis.  You can learn something in every situation.  And every person has something they can teach you.  Your true takeaway is what is key -- not some misplaced egoic desire to win or to be right.  Any run-of-the-mill enlightened person knows the foolishness of being a know-it-all.  That's a big-trap that a lot of very smart people fall into.  They wanna be right.   But thats' illusion-city goin' on there!

Edited August 8, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[PetarKa]

Avoid trying to convince the other person. If needed, simply hear out their own worldview (on whichever topic) and when they're done you have one bit of new information -- you know what THEY BELIVE. Nothing else. That doesn't say whether they're correct or not. Just that that's their view on the subject. Do with that information what you will.

[ajasatya]

@Charl when she said that "your political view is one of the most important things in your life and is the most effective thing concerning impact (through voting, demonstrating, etc)", she was talking about herself.

instead of arguing, just listen. it's a richer way to know the other person.
and when you talk about what you think, make it clear that you're talking about your way of thinking. don't try to dismantle the other person.

[Azrael]

On 7.8.2017 at 11:53 PM, Charl said:

So how do I stop unnecessary debates while maintaining 'deep talks' with friends? And how do I stay open-minded while valuing my own research? 

In my opinion (and in my experience) there are people with which you'll always have very deep and interesting conversations by default. Keep them if you like. And there are others that just always fight over opinions and get high on there ego doing it. Get rid of them. Find better people, stop fucking with the low people.

... Or even better, talk to them (sometimes) and just don't take them seriously.

[Shin]

A debate: Two egoistitical minds fighting about relative truths.

 

[Lord Bwyra]

Instead of debate, each party should share what they know and have a conversation. Before proceeding from here, each has to fully understand each other's position. This can be done with friendliness and humor. No need for anyone getting upset or claiming higher ground based on one's own views or expertise. When done right, a bridge is formed and thinking happens "together". You arrive at conclusions together. You contemplate possible gaps in logic, together. The debate that is left is between that which is and that which isn't or that which we do not yet know about.

I feel that this kind of approach (which I learned from Jiddu Krishnamurti btw, he'd often start his talks this way) would be much more productive than the formal philosophical debate where you try to annihilate your opponent.

Gandhi also once said that if you cannot improve silence then it is best to not say anything.

This is also a viable option.

[Charl]

On 8.8.2017 at 11:37 AM, Erlend K said:

I love discussing and arguing for my views, but also love discovering new ideas that contradics my own and helps make my views more nuanced and precise.

I also do this with my friends and then I actually gain new knowledge with that. I only have a problem with it if it is not a 'new idea' but the default position. For example my imaginery friend would claim that nutrition has nothing to do with heart disease and would back this up with arguments supported by the pharma industry. This is the default position where I once was but through research I got to a higher level. In this case I don't know what to do. I could shut up but I believe my knowledge is valuable. I could try to understand my friend but the possibility is there that I already do because it is the same default position where I once was. I could explain my point of view and also why this view isn't popular which can hurt my friend's ego. The solution is probably to try to understand the other person first and see if I can gain knowledge from their point of view, then explain my view if I feel like they would like to hear it and if they don't shut up.

 

On 8.8.2017 at 11:37 AM, Erlend K said:

The way to stay open minded, while valuing your own research is to avoid getting your ego entangled in needing your exising views to be right.

Yes, that is true. I noticed that I need my existing views to be right because my happiness is attached to them. I will defend the belief 'You can cure anxiety' with all my heart because I myself do not believe it 100%, so better pursade everyone else.

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Charl
typos

[Charl]

@Joseph Maynor I know that you are probably right. But like I explained in the post above it's hard for me to be open-minded when I know the other person has just picked up information from society by default. I think that is hard for me because I am trying to fight my own beliefs that were picked up by default and do not want to backslide.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Charl
missing words

[Charl]

@PetarKa Yes! But how should I end the conversation? Of course my friends will ask me what I think. And if they won't agree they won't shut up I need some smooth debate closers 

[Charl]

On 8.8.2017 at 10:36 PM, ajasatya said:

and when you talk about what you think, make it clear that you're talking about your way of thinking. don't try to dismantle the other person

I said to her that this is just my view and that it is not neccessarely right but that it just fits in my current model of reality and that her view is of course appropriate too. And then she told me that doesn't make sense and backed it up by Kant's definition of maximes, the desire to make your own maxime everyones maxime (very sloppy explanation). I then we started debating whether truth is relative or not

[Charl]

16 hours ago, Azrael said:

And there are others that just always fight over opinions and get high on there ego doing it.

But wait, that's me!

[Charl]

@Lord Bwyra Trying to fully understand the other person's view sounds really fun actually when I think about it. Like understanding it so deeply that you can explain it in your words and seeing through the eyes of the other person. Other people recommended this in this thread too but the 'fully' only made it exciting. Thanks!

[Epiphany_Inspired]

I remember my early days....when I was first on this forum (it's the only one for me still), anyway, I was still in my elementary school mindset that debating was "fun and cool"....the more PD you do, the more petty and ridiculous it seems...that said, exchanging different opinions opening minds, etc are all great...I guess it's about shifting your intentions and expectations...but mostly realizing, you won't die if you are not "right"....lol....

[Joseph Maynor]

25 minutes ago, Epiphany_Inspired said:

I remember my early days....when I was first on this forum (it's the only one for me still), anyway, I was still in my elementary school mindset that debating was "fun and cool"....the more PD you do, the more petty and ridiculous it seems...that said, exchanging different opinions opening minds, etc are all great...I guess it's about shifting your intentions and expectations...but mostly realizing, you won't die if you are not "right"....lol....

There's a Ralph Waldo Emerson quote that I don't remember verbatim but I'll paraphrase it like this -- every person has something that they know that you do not know and that they could teach you if you were open to listening to them.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[PetarKa]

13 hours ago, Charl said:

@PetarKa Yes! But how should I end the conversation? Of course my friends will ask me what I think. And if they won't agree they won't shut up I need some smooth debate closers 

You can just say "Oh well, I've just learned to live with these crazy ideas. Silly me!" <= Credit goes to another person on this forum, can't remember the username, but he basically said to laugh and make jokes about your "silly" ideas.