If Reality Is Neutral..

[The White Belt]

Then why is it, that we feel out of sorts when we are sad, negative, angry, disappointed? Why do we pull ourselves back to happiness?

Even unconscious people know it's not right when they are stressed, anxious, unhappy etc.

This is the entire point of life, to be happy, why do we have this bias between equanimity, happiness, calm, peace etc?

Why are enlightened people so happy, so calm, so soothing, funny, all of these traits we know are good, if reality is nothingness?

[Spiral]

Humans are "designed" to prefer happiness and therefore we strive for it, although maybe I misunderstand what you are asking for.

If you mean why are we designed to strive after happiness, we need to it for biological reason, now why do things have to be that way? well... idk, that just how it is I suppose.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Spiral

[Nahm]

@The White Belt it is you who holds the beliefs and concepts which cause the sadness! let all thoughts, beliefs and concepts go.  let your past and future go! it's all illusion! it's all make believe! the rainbow that awaits you is you and it does not know sadness, only illusion! 

meditate and let go of all your intentions, all your dreams, everything you want, let go of yourself- it will all be waiting when you're done, just as you left it. 

 

[Shin]

Yesterday I was having a depression, except that I knew it was that, didn't bought into it, even laughed about it, and I was at peace.

Peace is different than happiness, it's subtler, less flashy, but that's what you really want, not happiness, hapinness is way too much associated with pleasure and having a high of sort.

You can't have constant happiness, at least not when you still think you're a human being, the whole seeking and hoarding of happiness is what creates sorrow in the first place anyway.

 

Edited July 25, 2017 by Shin

[The White Belt]

Why peace then? Why don't enlightened people have chaos? If consciousness is neutral...

[Nahm]

every spec of the illusion is relative.  u r absolute.  

[Ananta]

5 hours ago, The White Belt said:

Then why is it, that we feel out of sorts when we are sad, negative, angry, disappointed?

Because we feel off balance, however all these emotions are part of the human existence. Accepting them and not resisting allows them to move on much quicker. 

5 hours ago, The White Belt said:

Even unconscious people know it's not right when they are stressed, anxious, unhappy etc.

That's ego talking. Meaning, ego wants to not feel these things and so will chase objects to feel happy.

5 hours ago, The White Belt said:

Why are enlightened people so happy, so calm, so soothing, funny, all of these traits we know are good, if reality is nothingness?

How many so called enlightened people do you know ..well? You can't count those under a microscope during a Satsang. Emotions come and go, they're not a problem unless the ego grabs a hold of them.

Nisargadatta is a prime example, many people have accounted that he was quick to anger, even yell at people, but would turn around a few minutes later and be laughing with them.

[Shanmugam]

39 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

Because we feel off balance, however all these emotions are part of the human existence. Accepting them and not resisting allows them to move on much quicker. 

That's ego talking. Meaning, ego wants to not feel these things and so will chase objects to feel happy.

How many so called enlightened people do you know ..well? You can't count those under a microscope during a Satsang. Emotions come and go, they're not a problem unless the ego grabs a hold of them.

Nisargadatta is a prime example, many people have accounted that he was quick to anger, even yell at people, but would turn around a few minutes later and be laughing with them.

They don't really feel those emotions like others do... It only appears such for the people who are watching them.. All the liberated person feels is ups and downs in energy, and a little bit of subtle sensations... In other words, their emotions are not really like the emotions of people who are unconscious. Emotions of people who are unconscious are very solid, opaque and they get powered by thoughts and emotions back and forth for a while.. Emotions of liberated ones are like tiny bits of distant clouds which disappear without any effort. I would feel hesitant to even call them as emotions..

[Ananta]

8 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

They don't really feel those emotions like others do... It only appears such for the people who are watching them.. All the liberated person feels is ups and downs in energy, and a little bit of subtle sensations... In other words, their emotions are not really like the emotions of people who are unconscious. Emotions of people who are unconscious are very solid, opaque and they get powered by thoughts and emotions back and forth for a while.. Emotions of liberated ones are like tiny bits of distant clouds which disappear without any effort. I would feel hesitant to even call them as emotions..

Hmm, I think we had this same discussion on the other forum. It went no where on there and I suspect the same here. So, I will not comment further.

[Shanmugam]

Just now, Anna1 said:

Hmm, I think we had this same discussion on the other forum. It went no where on there and I suspect the same here. So, I will not comment further.

No problem... But let me ask you onething... Unless you yourself are enlightened, how would you know how enlightened ones perceive emotions in a particular way?

You may ask me the same question.. I don't really know how exactly the enlightened ones perceive the emotions, but what I stated was actually how I perceive those emotions... So, you can replace the word 'they' with 'I'... 

But I don't claim to be enlightened. All I know is I am free of the sense of separate identity....Since they should also be free of the sense of separate identity, I just infer that they should either perceive emotions the same way I do or not perceive them at all...But not perceiving any emotions at all seems to be something that is not in my understanding. So, I just said what is more likely based on my own experience.

However, I know perfectly well and 100% sure that what I described in my previous post is possible. Because that is how I experience life. Does it make sense?

[Ananta]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Shanmugam

I kind of agree with this.  I don't really have too many emotions anymore.  Last 30 days I've been 90% reduced in emotions, both positive and negative.

You may have painful emotions if your mom gets hit by a bus tomorrow... 

Emotions are like thoughts..out of your control and come/go. 

 

[Ananta]

@Shanmugam Sounds like you suffer from apathy...

Pleasure and pain persist after Moksha! Difference is suffering ends. The feeling that you are in some foundational way diminished. 

[Shanmugam]

@Anna1 I didn't say pain and pleasure doesn't persist... Read my post again

[Heart of Space]

Having an ego has an evolutionary advantage for human beings.  Without an ego all beings would be in such extreme peace they would not care if they could not get their next meal, sexual partner, or even their next breathe of air.  If you were in such an extreme state of peace you would have very poor chances of surviving and reproducing.  

Because of this, the ego is an advantageous creation for the soul purpose of making an illusory game of "I need (X) thing to be satisfied or happy."  In the short term, the ego rewards those who give into its wants, but in the long run it is a bottomless pit of craving and aversion.  This is the best way an organism with such a complex level of consciousness such as a human survives with the highest probability of reproducing.  

Seeing through this game will allow you to gain the peace that the ego promises but never delivers.  

Edited July 26, 2017 by Heart of Space

[Shanmugam]

@Anna1  You probably misunderstood what I said... Let me add some annotations and formatting

 

They don't really feel those emotions like others do...(they feel them quite differently) .. It only appears such for the people who are watching them.. All the liberated person feels is ups and downs in energy, and a little bit of subtle sensations.(which may be painful or pleasing).. In other words, their emotions are not really like the emotions of people who are unconscious. Emotions of people who are unconscious are very solid, opaque and they get powered by thoughts and emotions back and forth for a while.. Emotions of liberated ones are like tiny (painful or pleasant) bits of distant clouds which disappear without any effort. I would feel hesitant to even call them as emotions.. 

[SLICKHAWK]

Enlightenment is to be awake share the light of our creator YeHoVaH keep the truth salvation our messiah Yeshua. 

Once you open the eye to see ears to hear you will know truth.

Enlightened is to light out the dark as darkness consumes a room yet the smallest light will consume the dark.?

 

[SLICKHAWK]

I find YeHoVaH hard topic in this forum yet ill pass along a few text of the word. ??? most help me along my path no fear. I only see truth Forgivness in our creator our Father.

[SOUL]

9 hours ago, The White Belt said:

Why peace then? Why don't enlightened people have chaos? If consciousness is neutral...

Being at peace with what may be swirling around us whether it be chaos or order and is probably both is not an abstinence from any turmoil or an immersion in tranquility.

[Shanmugam]

3 hours ago, Anna1 said:

@Shanmugam Sounds like you suffer from apathy...

Pleasure and pain persist after Moksha! Difference is suffering ends. The feeling that you are in some foundational way diminished. 

@Anna1 Not really apathy, just the exact opposite.. Whatever I do, I am able to do with full enthusiasm.. I get completely absorbed and become one with the task..    

But  I agree I lack many things: the ability to regret, ability to complain about  what happens in life, ability to feel anxious about future, ability to feel the emotions the same way I did (weird, huh? ) etc... And I am not suffering from it, I am enjoying the freedom that comes with it.. If I suddenly come to know that all this has nothing to do with enlightenment that is talked about by gurus but it is seriously a mental disorder, that will make no difference to the peace... 

This reminds me of a popular quote: "I'm not suffering from insanity, I'm enjoying every minute of it" 

Let me be very honest with you.. I really know absolutely nothing about how an enlightened person's mind looks like. I don't know whether he experiences pain or pleasure etc.. All I know is about my own mind and the freedom and peace that came from my own practices... And I wouldn't know what happens in the future because no one can tell. 

But I have heard different things said by different people about how an enlightened person thinks and experiences life.

There is a guru in India with millions of followers who claim that this guru has changed their lives. They are totally impressed  by him! And the guru claims that he is in ecstatic bliss all the time, he doesn't have any thoughts at all except when he has to move around, if he wants he can simply close his eyes and just die by his will etc...  

And there are other people who claim that after enlightenment there is still suffering, still craving, still anger, etc.

Finally there are people who claim that there is no suffering (the suffering which causes an individual to feel miserable , lost or diminished) but there is still pain and pleasure. This version actually is quite similar to the type of whatever disorder that I have. .. But this weird disorder also made me incapable of worrying about anything at all. 

But ultimately, enlightenment is just a word with many definitions that people have associated with some kind of liberation that happened for them, which can be verified only by them. After all, I can only know what happens in my own conscious field.. When others tell me about their field of consciousness, I don't really have any way to verify this. I just have their testimony poured into my ears...

So, Let me repeat... I don't know anything about what happens after Moksha, what persists after moksha etc. But since you are certain about it and seem to know everything that happens after moksha, let me ask you this question:

You say that pleasure and pain persist after moksha... may be.. I don't know.. I have only heard people saying so... But how do you know that for sure? Can you be absolutely certain and 100% sure about this? If yes, how?

(I am not starting another debate with you.. I am only going to ask you questions.. In the further discussions about this topic with you, I am going to maintain that I don't know)

 

[Guest username]

Raising your consciousness only makes you more aware of what is already the case. The peace of mind and happiness is just a human reaction to becoming aware of the nature of reality.

The truth is the truth for miserable people as well. Enlightened or unenlightened is the same from the perspective of the absolute because reality has no distinctions or boundaries.  

Suffering is a byproduct of ego. When you become conscious of what suffering is, you realize that it is like everything else. Ironically this dissolves the suffering.