Challenging Leo on women

[Emerald]

7 minutes ago, LordFall said:

I find what you're saying very fascinating because it's power dynamics 101. I think your advice is probably correct for most women. 

I don't know if this is fully accurate but it's worth exploring deeper. I think what you're describing is close to putting women on a pedestal and submitting to the divine feminine ideal. I think this can work sometimes for men but it can also spectacularly backfire. 

This is actually quite high level in terms of dating dynamics because I don't think any science that mankind has done so far can conclusively answer this one way or another. The best I can say is that self-awareness and knowing what your wants and needs is very mandatory for a peak dating life. If I was paid to do dating coaching for women I don't think I would deviate from the advice you've given in terms of female POV. In terms of consulting for men though I don't think that being in the chasing dynamic is optimal. You are also correct though that if you are the one being chased it can lead to being indifferent or jaded. So it's a tough nut to crack. 

It also boils down to what this falling in love means and often times from the male POV it does mean submitting to the woman and being at her mercy so to speak. I will say that I do truly believe this is a weak form of love and there is a more powerful one that can be achieved that benefits both the man and the woman but I will need to test that for myself and report back in a few years instead of speculating.

Me and @Inliytened1 were just talking about this in the other thread though. It truly is a fascinating discussion and I think its good to deconstruct love and relationships as much as we can.  

I'm not describing pedestalizing women or submitting to her in some way. That's also not good.

It's more like, during the dating phase, a dynamic where a man is taking the initiative to add to her life and is showing that he values her and is serious about pursuing a relationship with her.

But he's not worshipping her... or disrespecting himself to do it, and he has self-respect and boundaries also. 

He's just consistently showing her that he's invested and doing the legwork to bring the relationship to a deeper and more committed level.

And men tend to develop deeper feelings when they are investing in the woman.

So, if he's serious about the woman, he's setting most of the dates, and he's the one spear-heading the direction of the relationship.

And if he's not being proactive like that... it's purely because he doesn't want to. And no amount of wooing, chasing, and cajoling will get him to want to.

 

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Codependent fixing gets reframed into saving women from the bad guys.

Are you saying there's a dynamic with reframing a woman's issues with codependency as something that's the fault of "bad guys"?

Well, there's definitely dynamics that need to be worked on for both parties.

For a codependent woman, it's important to grow some self-esteem and get better at sorting so that she doesn't end up in unsatisfying dynamics with the "bad guys". And it's also important to understand the difference between how women and men operate when they're wanting a serious relationship.

She also needs to learn how to be honest with herself about WHAT she wants instead of settling for whatever because of WHO she wants.

And she has to avoid the idea that a support for women's sexual autonomy means the same as 'being able to have sex without getting invested the way men can.'

So, there's a lot of learning and un-learning the woman must do to avoid these situations. And it's fully within her power and responsibility to do so.

And no amount of telling guys they shouldn't is going to prevent a woman from experiencing this, if she doesn't learn to sort these kinds of guys from consideration.

But it's definitely important for men to not kid themselves if the woman they're regularly sleeping with is clearly lying to herself about being okay with being FWB. He also must take responsibility and cut things off if he senses that kind of power imbalance in the dynamic.

So, while I'm definitely not saying "The power and responsibility all sit with the men who kid themselves and take advantage." They still have the responsibility to do right by the woman and not to delude themselves into taking advantage of the vulnerabilities that are built into women's sexuality and pair bonding drives... which may run counter to the stories that women tell themselves about how they should or shouldn't feel.

[Joshe]

53 minutes ago, Ulax said:

Codependent fixing gets reframed into saving women from the bad guys.

Saying a guy is responsible for what he knowingly does to someone isn't a hero complex. It's just pointing out the obvious. 

If anyone thinks the guy in my story was justified in continuing to use this girl for sex for 2 years, all the while knowing what she wanted, and all the while knowing he was never going to give it to her, you've got some work to do. 

Or I guess because she didn't have her shit together, that makes her fair game and him the adult.

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Are you saying there's a dynamic with reframing a woman's issues with codependency as something that's the fault of "bad guys"?

No

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

They still have the responsibility to do right by the woman and not to delude themselves into taking advantage of the vulnerabilities that are built into women's sexuality and pair bonding drives... which may run counter to the stories that women tell themselves about how they should or shouldn't feel.

Disagree with that

[LordFall]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

If anyone thinks the guy in my story was justified in continuing to use this girl for sex for 2 years, all the while knowing what she wanted, and all the while knowing he was never going to give it to her, you've got some work to do. 

Or I guess because she didn't have her shit together, that makes her fair game and him the adult.

I still think you guys are weirdly thinking about casual sex. What makes you think being fully single is the only way to work on yourself? Why can't she see a guy even if it's not gonna be her forever partner? 

The fact that their FWB lasted for 2 years if anything tells us that there was a lot of alignment there even if they weren't compatible as long term romantic partners. Monogamy is not the only valid relationship format that works for humans. It's a very puritan view of the world. 

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall