Challenging Leo on women

[Alexop]

8 hours ago, aurum said:

Yellow is primarily about radical multi-perspectivalism, even beyond the pluralism of Orange / Green.

This is not at all something humans are just born with.

Yellow requires a highly advanced way of thinking/logic, a behaviour and a way of seeing the world that we often perceive as masculine.

Edited 4 hours ago by Alexop

[Alexop]

23 hours ago, enchanted said:

Just fuck whoever you want. Don't listen to Leo. The best type of love is radical and breaks all the rules. Even the rules Leo suggests. 

Leo is great if you are lost. If you aren't lost than live your life the way you want and ignore what some random YouTuber says. 

No worries. I know what I want and don´t want. I don´t need daddy Leo to tell me this. I was curious of his perspective.

[Alexop]

7 hours ago, Joshe said:

Quick question for you: Which stage is hierarchy most conscious? Is that "orange"? 

No. Tier 2 of course. Orange can create retarded hierarchies where winner takes all, many times they are failing at creating merit based hierarchies that remain like that. Almost all corporations have a ladder of ass licking, negotiation skills, nepotism, corruption.  AND this is why Green is so vehement in dismantling hierarchies, because it is a reaction to Orange.

Tier 1 reacts and very often over-reacts to the preceding stage. Tier 2 acts, Tier 1 REacts.

Edited 4 hours ago by Alexop

[Alexop]

12 hours ago, Joshe said:

If you follow the implications down, you will see just how flawed SD is for anything above green. 

LOL

[Yimpa]

Random thought, but You have a beautiful smile. Both on here and your YT profile.

[Alexop]

Just now, Yimpa said:

Random thought, but You have a beautiful smile. Both on here and your YT profile.

I know, I am very handsome and smart.

[LordFall]

7 hours ago, Joshe said:

 

Of couse I'm in stage green! That's been the problem my entire life! I just couldn't understand hierarchies! No matter what I did or how much I contemplated, I just couldn't understand hierarchies for the life of me! lol. 

Quick question for you: Which stage is hierarchy most conscious? Is that "orange"? 

It's actually funny to even think about if you wanted to compare your understanding of humans to mine systematically, that your understanding would make mine look inferior. 

I had higher hopes for you kid. 

 

7 hours ago, Joshe said:

Bullshit. I was born with it. And the implication is that I was "born into yellow". This has massive problems for the model. I wasn't "born into yellow". I was born with a "predisposition". It doesn't make me special. I dont't get to claim some higher level development because of it. 

I mean I'm gonna try to be nicer than I usually am even with someone that's being condescending but don't you see how you're clearly delusional?

Of course refusing the existence of hierarchies is inferior to understanding why and how they work lol  

If it makes you feel better about being born into yellow, you don't seem to exhibit many yellow traits and if I had to give your argument a spiral dynamics assessment I would call it 20% yellow, 60% green, 0% orange and 20% blue.

I'll leave you with a Soccer analogy. Why on earth would everyone on earth be equally good at Soccer? Some people have a natural disposition towards athleticism and some others other fields. Some others that have less natural talent become way better at it than others who are more talented but train less. Some people have higher IQ than others. Some people with high IQs are depressed and can't solve their problems even with it and some people with 80 IQ are the happiest people on earth.

Being offended at hierarchies is an inferior viewpoint because it's reductionist and fails to comprehend how they fit into the grander system of the universe. 

@Natasha Tori Maru is also right that you clearly aren't deeply yellow since you started with the conclusion that spiral dynamics is invalid because it's unfair and when I debunked your point instead of understanding my perspective and adding it to yours; you got triggered and attacked me and did this weird thing where I should have to do the intellectual labor of making your point for you.

Classic stage green trend where when they encounter something that feels unfair and wrong to them they use emotions over logic to react to it and tend to virtue signal or flip out. Thus why it's a very ineffective stage and leaves people quite bitter and depressed because they refuse to integrate stage orange and become effective agents of change in the world and are just stuck with pain without a way to channel it into higher tier yellow systemic solutions. 

 

Edited 4 hours ago by LordFall

[Alexop]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

That's how I often speak about the Masculine and Feminine polarity as well.

No on can fundamentally add or take away Masculinity or Femininity from themselves, as it is the "binary code" that acts as the foundation of one's being... or even the being of both organic and non-organic systems in reality. 

And it informs but supersedes human dynamics like gender expression and sexuality. And it doesn't change. (That's why things like conversion therapy are ineffective)

And I like to think of a person's inherent Masculine/Feminine signature like an light.

And then, the Persona is like a lens through which that light can shine out.

So, the light of the Masculine/Feminine signature never changes.

But the Persona lenses can be changed in a way that either allows more of that light to express outwardly... or that blocks that light from external expression.

So, if for example, a woman has a predominantly Feminine 'Masculine/Feminine signature' but she exists in an environment where only Masculinity can exist and flourish and Femininity is seen as weak and bad and is given no space, she's only going to allow the Masculine qualities to be expressed through her Persona lens, as that's the more adaptive for the context.

In fact, she may even grow her identity and worldview to exclude her Feminine side altogether... despite it being her dominant energy.

And there are many contexts that exist (especially male-dominated contexts, where the men are trying really hard to minimize the Feminine portion of their signature) where it's not wise or even possible for the Feminine to be expressed there.

These are spaces that repel the Feminine and require a Masculine way of expressing to exist in. And it will chase most women off who don't want to operate in a Masculine way. And then of course, men in those spaces are often complaining about women not being Feminine enough... or how they're struggling to attract women. (This may sound like a familiar place )

But think of an individual's Masculine and Feminine signature as a flower seed.

And think of the context as the soil.

And think of the flower as the Persona.

The seed never changes. It is the core personality.

And let's say, there are three types of soil...

• Acidic soil that Feminine-dominant flowers thrive in,
• Basic soil that Masculine-dominant flowers thrive in,
• and then there's a type of soil that's similar to, different from, and greater than both the acidic and basic soil where all flowers can thrive. (A bit like type O blood is in comparison to Type A and Type B)

And most contexts in the world at this juncture in time are like giant plots of Basic Soil. And there are a handful of specialty niche 3rd spaces that are like plots of Acidic soil.

And there are VERY FEW niche 3rd spaces that are like the third kind of soil.

So, there isn't really a lot of space for Feminine-dominant flowers to grow to their highest level of development. But they can grow the Masculine parts of the flower quite well by planting themselves in Basic soil.

However, that doesn't make the flower a Masculine-dominant flower.

A Daffodil doesn't turn into a Sunflower just because the soil wasn't ideal for Daffodils. But the yellow part of the Daffodil might be the parts that grow better. 

And the Sunflowers might go... too much yellow! These Daffodils are more like Sunflowers. But that's not accurate. 

really good analogies!

On the one hand, people are able to experience and develop only one energy, typically the masculine, due to environment. On the other, even if they have both sides develped and they are atuthentically feminine lets say, when in a masculine environment, they let only the masculinity out. 

I also believe that most people can be flexible and be contextually masculine or feminine, depending on what is required from them. I refuse to believe that for example, a highly brainy academic woman who talks about advanced economical models etc. cannot let go and relax and trust the lead of her man when at home. She does not have to become some fluffy whoofy daddy´s girl. For me it is enough to just let go, relax and let me contain her. And sometimes, why not, let her lead me. I also need a break.

Edited 3 hours ago by Alexop

[Alexop]

 @Joshe Let´s keep the thread about masculinity/femininity and talk SD somewhere else. It is pretty clear to me that you have a lot of work to do until you understand the model.

Edited 3 hours ago by Alexop

[LordFall]

2 hours ago, Alexop said:

really good analogies!

On the one hand, people are able to experience and develop only one energy, typically the masculine, due to environment. On the other, even if they have both sides develped and they are atuthentically feminine lets say, when in a masculine environment, they let only the masculinity out. 

I also believe that most people can be flexible and be contextually masculine or feminine, depending on what is required from them. I refuse to believe that for example, a highly brainy academic woman who talks about advanced economical models etc. cannot let go and relax and trust the lead of her man when at home. She does not have to become some fluffy whoofy daddy´s girl. For me it is enough to just let go, relax and let me contain her. And sometimes, why not, let her lead me. I also need a break.

I think it's important to understand personality types as survival strategies. Being an intellectual is a survival strategy more than really deep down who you are. Especially if we break down what being an intellectual usually entails: being more withdrawn, observing before acting, using pattern recognition to spot trends, analysis oriented, etc. Those sound like ways to deal with an environment, problems and overall threats to me.

Now if we look at how masculinity and femininity manifest in women; doesn't it map out pretty much perfectly to survival strategies? Some women are raised in environments where being expressive and girly is what's gonna solve their problems and increase their status. Some other women have to suppress that and basically act like men to be safe. Classic case of Mulan from Disney or Arya Stark in Game of thrones.

That's the nurture component and I'm sure there are some genetic components as well. I think once an individual is removed from that survival pressure they might still keep some tendencies that are now the core of their personality. I think some of you guys in this thread would be shocked at how different people behave if you give them a safe space to express themselves though.

I was the manager of a coffee shop and I had two women and two men working under me. We hired a dude who was really useless and one of the women when working with him was rude, bossy and what some would call masculine. He was an active liability to be around in the cafe though and made everyone's life harder. When she worked with me and I did everything and she didn't really have to do much she was so sweet and nice and expressive and girly and just bringing me cookies and chilling. 

If you guys want a feminine woman then give her space to be feminine and handle all her problems for her. Some women will still not let their guard down and have some mental hangups that they may choose to work through to relax and let themselves just express unencumbered. 

The trope of the alpha male has been bastardized but it really just mean a competent man that can handle society and the evils of the world on her behalf. If you got enough money that she will never have to stress about it, are fit enough that her nervous system knows that if shit goes down she's safe, if you have communication skills to not antagonize her when conflict arises and the emotional intelligence to understand the issues that you're both dealing with and work through them positively then I think you will find that most women are quite feminine in your presence. 

Most men aren't that(not that I have fully realized that myself) and are literally an active liability to be around. No wonder they find women uninterested in them, combative and unpleasant to deal with. 

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall

[aurum]

9 hours ago, Joshe said:

But say I did. Would that complicate anything? Because I’d put money that my models are more accurate than yours. And what if I could prove it? 

Yellow is not about accuracy of models, it's a meta-orientation towards all models, paradigms and perspectives.

If you think you have something, show me what you're talking about.

[Alexop]

@LordFall exactly! I dated a girl who acted all bossy and stuff with guys. Because she mostly dated loser nice guys. When she was with me, she was a compltely different person, she told me that her nervous system was in full alert while with those soy boys, but with me she felt safe and lead, so she acted feminine. Our behavior is very contextual. Of course there are nature aspects, like the temperament and introversion/extroversion. But context influence our behavior alot.