Frame Control: how to effectively filter out good women

[Ulax]

I am lucky I had good mentors on my way to frame control mastery.

I see many who struggle with the concept though. If they are good people then I feel sorry for them. If they are bad people then I am happy they struggle with the skill.

[aurum]

12 minutes ago, Jirh said:

Those burdens are not consequences of truth, they're consequences of performance/lying.

Both are possible.

Performance and truth are not mutually exclusive.

[Jirh]

@aurum

I don't think so.

I think truth is authentic, and authenticity is the opposite of performance.

[aurum]

4 minutes ago, Jirh said:

@aurum

I don't think so.

I think truth is authentic, and authenticity is the opposite of performance.

Truth is not the same thing as authenticity.

It's not possible to cleanly distinguish between the authenticity / performance binary.

Truth is meta.

[Jirh]

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

It's not possible to cleanly distinguish between the authenticity / performance binary.

It is the easiest thing to distinguish for the one doing it. You are aware of yourself and your actions and motivations. You know when you are being authentic or performing. That's what matters, not what others think. The fact that you argued this suggests that you're frequently performing for others.

[Raze]

Frame is not about being right or getting your way.

It’s about who is more seeking to fit in with the other. 

[aurum]

17 minutes ago, Jirh said:

It is the easiest thing to distinguish for the one doing it. You are aware of yourself and your actions and motivations. You know when you are being authentic or performing. That's what matters, not what others think. The fact that you argued this suggests that you're frequently performing for others.

You can make the distinction practically. It might be useful at times.

But ultimately the distinction has to collapse.

[Joseph Maynor]

It is not frame control, it is frame interaction.  It is an interplay.  

[Jirh]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

You can make the distinction practically. It might be useful at times.

But ultimately the distinction has to collapse.

No, you don't get it. You have a dogmatic belief about this topic. Authenticity is not performance, and it will never be.

Authenticity is something you'd do regardless of what other people think or say. You'd do it for free, just because you enjoy it. You'd do it when you're alone when nobody's watching.

Hobbies are clear examples of authentic activities. You're doing something for the sake of it. Not for other people. Unless you find a way to twist hobbies into means for social approval.

Work can be authentic, even though most people are not working authentic jobs. An authentic job is something you'd do for free, but you're happy that you're getting recognized and paid for it. Motivation is the main differentiator. The difference between an authentic job and a performative job is that you'd still do and enjoy the authentic job even if you lose your job, you'd still do what you like doing for yourself, for free.

Notice, I'm not saying it's easy to distinguish for others. There are a lot of cases where people seem completely authentic in their performance. But that means nothing. Deep down, their motivation is social approval. That's what performance essentially is. Someone who performs for an audience.

But it's easy to distinguish for yourself when there's no audience. An eagle hunts not for an audience, but for itself. That is the compass. The motivation behind the act.

"Are you doing what you're doing because that's who you truly are or because that's just a role you're playing?". That's the question.

Edited yesterday at 08:17 AM by Jirh

[Miguel1]

Real authenticity cannot be performative, by definition.

You can perform authenticity, but that’s fake.

[Jirh]

16 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Real authenticity cannot be performative, by definition.

You can perform authenticity, but that’s fake.

Exactly! 💯

Acting is an example of performing authenticity. We enjoy it, even though we know it's fake.

(I know it's loosely related to topic, but it's an interesting example)

Edited 23 hours ago by Jirh

[Rishabh R]

@Miguel1 I think that the marker of authenticity, vulnerability is initial nervousness and expressing yourself despite it as compared to performative authenticity which doesn't involves actual risk or nervousness .

[KosmicGeng]

16 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

... when you don't understand wtf you are doing

Certainty is NOT a proxy for strength and disagreements aren't a dominance contest. It is a nice way to invalidate first person knowledge and creates a wonderful little self-sealing psychological model. Mind reading, rewarding one's own projection, discouraging honest and genuine curiosity. Bad frame control makes any sort of repair process difficult while suppressing reciprocal emotions. Causing nothing more than misunderstanding and division. The opposite of connection - what relationships are all about.

It is the essence of performative masculinity. Nothing screams "low on the totem pole" more. 

It also selects for women who tolerate being overridden (bad boundaries and sense of self). You push way women who value maturity over hierarchy, women who can distinguish confidence from rigidity, women who don't need a man to tell them who they are, women who don't reward status games & appreciate being challenged but not overridden. Women that want to be encountered and not just emotionally dissected - women who want to be met with emotional intimacy. Women who genuinely find vulnerability more attractive that invulnerability.

Good frame holding doesn't require you to actually control someone else's frame.

This is interesting, when I went out I let go of frame control in order to be authentic mostly, I am naturally genuiently curious, and after sometime I can let go and be cool, but I am also very femine, and I have strong fire energy in leadership areas, were women sense the issue of the polarity maturity and hierachy, last relationship I was rewarded for the status game, and the society around me, also while I mostly crave a closer connection towards God, I am a psychological dissector absolutely, and being vulnerable left more scars, and turned away the natural hierachy, but some women embrace it who are very beautiful, I hope I can get together with some of them. 

What is your telltale sign of performative masculinity from your POV, sometimes I fall into the trap, when I express the need of exellence after doing Ken Wilbers course and integrating that, but what I experienced from the opposite end of the conditioning of the freedom drive, was disrespect for being authentic, group manipulation and I just felt as if I am an otrovert for my interest, and yearned to build masculinity, having more integral inspirations and facing the shadow, which I now mostly see is based on health, food and body, not so much psychologically, I enjoy most of your takes and the upbeat energy, I meet a lot of women attracted to my vulnerabillity, but at times I have to be careful to not make it a therapy session, as I was obsessed about improving relationships, and the natural flow did not work with my work ethic, and what is generally demanded of me, thoughts? 

The core point for me of being authentic was compassion, and listening, but at times it's just not possible, it's very different and I see that in my meditation sessions. I bought another book on brene brown, but awe-species all species love and compassion, just pulls me back into hermit mode, so people hate me while I am authentic, but if you know me it's not a performance and at times the performance feels as if it's authentic like a play or dance... 

Edited 14 hours ago by KosmicGeng