Professor Dave goes off on Destiny and Israel 🇮🇱

[Leo Gura]

You guys are dealing with ideals and theories, not political reality.

[coca]

@Leo Gura Which ideal or theory have I pointed to? And how does it differ from the political reality

[Raze]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are dealing with ideals and theories, not political reality.

Studies find giving populations an electoral voice with the government that rules over them reduces political violence historically. 
 

 

Edited 18 hours ago by Raze

[Terell Kirby]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are dealing with ideals and theories, not political reality.

Nothing wrong with ideals though, they are often the catalyst in changing political reality.

Development models only go so far. Of course they help broaden perspective but an over focus on them is quite limiting in explaining the totality of a situation.

Yes, there is a case that Palestinian low cognitive development has contributed to their destruction at the hands of the Israeli war machine, but Zionist ideology and racism/anti-Arabism in the West are equally at play.

Effective handling of what an elevated society labels “barbarian” and “savage”, without use ethic cleansing or mass genocide backed by religious ideologies, is a true marker of high development.

This is an ideal worth holding onto in my view.

Edited 15 hours ago by Terell Kirby

[coca]

@Terell Kirby Well said!

[Sandroew]

So dare i say that the most realistic solution to stop the genocide is to get palestinians out of Israel ? Even if morality dictates justice for the palestinians, its not what is realistically achievable.

The first problem with that is that they dont want to leave their home. But keeping them in the limbo of possible negotiations is not helping them.

Even if things could go back like it was before october 7th, it wouldnt be a solution for the situation. Israel isnt a secular country, its a theocracy that regards jewish people higher than non jewish people.

For an initiative like the Arab Peace Initiative to happen, the world needs to be something that the world isnt today. Even if there is a new president in the US in 2029 that doesnt support Israel with their whole being, thats more than 2 more years of this.

And the expectation is to make Israel reform from a theocracy to a secular country ? Thats going to take more than not sending them weapons and prosecuting Netanyahu.

And even if the palestinians leave behind their homes, that doesnt magically solve the whole problem with Israel. It stops the immediate suffering of palestinians.

And you are right to think that displacing nearly 2 million people is not a good solution either. I dont claim to be an expert or even that i have a good understanding of anything really at this point. But i can see how politics needs more nuance than demanding "the right thing".

Also this doesnt mean that the history of Palestine should be white washed. The israeli government should absolutely be held responsible for what they did.

And just because change doesnt happen from one day to the next, it doesnt mean it shouldnt be pursued.

[Terell Kirby]

2 hours ago, Sandroew said:

So dare i say that the most realistic solution to stop the genocide is to get palestinians out of Israel ?

You’d have to convince Palestinians that they are inside of Israel. They don’t consider Israel a legitimate state, let alone something they have to adhere to when it comes mandates to leave what they consider their land.

There is no easy solution, both sides are hell bent in getting their way, the US and current Trump administration is accelerating the conflict with no end in sight.

[Karmadhi]

What I personally find a bit hypocritial from many centrists like Destiny or even non centrists like @Leo Gura is that when it comes to Israel and Palestine they seem to have a very pragmatic ruthless attitude not based on morals but on purely raw power dynamics

Basically, Israel is on the wrong but Palestine is too weak to do anything about it so they must submit and allow Israel to get away with the bad things they did and heavily compromise. Because they cannot revoke the wrong-doings.

Fair

But when it comes to the Russia-Ukranian conflict, they do not have the same stance.

They have the stance that Russia is on the wrong and Ukraine should keep fighting to reverse the wrong-doings of Russia. They should not submit but keep on fighting. Even though Russia is much more powerful than Ukraine and Ukraine realistically has no chance of gaining back any of the land they took nor Russian leaders facing serious trials for war crimes

So basically, there it is a lot more idealistic and moralistic attitude meanwhile on Israel and Palestine it is basically "you lost, now submit to the one that fucked you"

Now I agree that the power difference between Russia and Ukraine is no near as big, but it is big enough that it is still pretty impossible to resolve without any compromise from the side that got unfarily treated (Ukraine here). 

Especially since Trump came to power and basically removed a lot of aid and there is even an air defense Western shortage thanks to the Iran war.

I find it interesting that when I speak with hardcore Pro Palis and I tell them they need to do a 2 state, I get the response (you do  not lower your head when someone comes to your house, takes your house, rapes you and tortures you)

When I say to an Ukranian or someone very pro Ukraine that Ukraine needs to probably make some compromises to Russia I get the response (you do not lower your head when someone comes to your house, takes your house, rapes you and tortures you)

Both sides view it in a similar way even though they will each say 'but that other conflict is different"

Yet 1 side should compromise and submit meanwhile the other is encourged to fight on against impossible odds according to centrists.

I find this a bit bizzare.

Personally I support both Ukraine and Palestine, do not get the wrong idea here. But I feel compromise is needed on both sides, not just for 1 conflict. Ironically I get called here a leftist but when it comes to Ukraine I am extremly realistic and pragmatic and not moralistic at all.

@Raze What do you think about this or I have the wrong idea?

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

Russia / Ukraine is not really a clean comp. Ukraine did nothing to Russia. They also pose no existential threat to Russia in any way. Russia's ambitions are completely resources driven. Some commentators have said that the threat to join NATO and isolate Russia has actually driven Russia to behave this way, and that is an explanation for how there are some threats to Russia but it is no where near the scale of Israel.

We're comparing Russia to a nation the size of New Jersey which just experienced a terror attack the magnitude of ten 9/11s. Tell me which nation on earth would not respond in extreme measures to something like that? You can justify it all you want, but if your neighbors killed so many of your friends and family, you would become radicalized. We say the same for the Palestinians, they do what they do because of the hurt they feel. 

I think the world generally understands that the middle east is much less cut and dry than Russia / Ukraine. 

Ukraine has never declared war on Russia and lost, and then had a decades long subjugation and never ending conflict as a result. 

 

[Leo Gura]

Russia-Ukraine are not comparable.

Russia straight up invaded a nation and seeks to eat the whole territory if allowed. Even Israel is not so bold.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Russia-Ukraine are not comparable.

Russia straight up invaded a nation and seeks to eat the whole territory if allowed. Even Israel is not so bold.

The entire response is moralizing, saying how Russia is so bad and why they are bad and must be stopped

That is not the point

The point is how to resolve it

Yes, Russia is on the wrong here. But this is not about right/wrong it is about raw power dynamics

Russia can take Ukranian land and Ukraine cannot get it back, no matter how hard they try. If all the stars align, which they usually do not, they will not loose much more land. Not get back land.

So, how do you resolve this?

See, here you starting moralizing instead of having the "you are outmatched better submit" attitude you have for Palestine

Also, fyi Israel does take Palestinian land and would eat it all up if allowed.They are currently lobbying USA hard to get a greenlight to kick out Gazans so they can annex it.  Israeli government does not even recognize Palestine as a thing, calls it a myth and is taking land every day in the West Bank. They are as bold as Russia. 

My response also applies to @hundreth

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

Ukraine is a viable state. Palestine is not.

Ukraine is also doing a great job opposing Russia, so power-wise Ukraine is doing okay.

Palestine is a terrorism and radical Islam issue. Ukraine is a classical war issue.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[AION]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Ukraine is a viable state. Palestine is not.

Ukraine is also doing a great job opposing Russia, so power-wise Ukraine is doing okay.

Palestine is a terrorism and radical Islam issue. Ukraine is a classical war issue.

If Palestine got the support Ukraine got it would viable too. 

[Karmadhi]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ukraine is a viable state. Palestine is not.

How do you determine that? Is it because you are from there? Seems very biased to me this response. No nation is more worthy than another to exist, only biases make it so. 

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ukraine is also doing a great job opposing Russia, so power-wise Ukraine is doing okay.

They are doing a good job surviving, yes. But they can survive just as well with a good settlement deal backed up by Western powers. The reason that has not happened is because Ukraine is hell bent on getting its land back. On getting its land back, they have not gained anything in almost 5 years. It is not looking like they will get anything soon either.  So in that regard they are not doing well. And all that "worth trying" attitude has killed hundred of thousands of Ukranians and cost the West hundreds of billions of dollars. 

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Palestine is a terrorism and radical Islam issue. Ukraine is a classical war issue.

Reducing Palestine to that seems to be a bit Islamophobic, no offense. The idea of "brown backward islamist Arabs that all that do is terrorism and cannot do anything else" is a classical trick used by to downgrade the whole Palestinian issue. Cenk says the same and I agree with him on that.

Palestine issue is fundamentally about land and colonialism. Not radical Islam.

Palestinian issue has been on for decades and it has never changed. 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, AION said:

If Palestine got the support Ukraine got it would viable too. 

No serious government wants to support terrorists.

[Karmadhi]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No serious government wants to support terrorists.

PLO are not terrorists from what I checked, no country designates them as so

Hamas are considered terrorists but they represent only Gaza and FYI

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/7/6/hamas-announces-dissolution-of-gaza-governing-body

I feel Gazans have realized that Hamas type leadership does not solve their issues and through the hell they have living perhaps will realize a new way must be found

Or am I being too optimistic?

I have seen a lot of interviews with people in West Bank and tbf they seem pretty chill

I see more hateful attitudes from Israelis than anything else

I feel that perhaps due to different degree of brutal occupation, Gaza and West Bank are not the same

West Bank seems more moderate, less religious fundamentalist and more mature overall

It is reflected in their government which is recognized as a viable government by most of the world

So your concerns and reasoning can apply to Gaza but to me Palestine is more West Bank than Gaza due to the size in population and land area.

Edited 59 minutes ago by Karmadhi

[AION]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No serious government wants to support terrorists.

That is not very nuanced. Just imagine how you would behave if you were stuck in an open air prison like that losing your friends and family on a daily basis. Not being able to do psychedelics and your philosophy.