Professor Dave goes off on Destiny and Israel 🇮🇱

[Leo Gura]

You guys are dealing with ideals and theories, not political reality.

[coca]

@Leo Gura Which ideal or theory have I pointed to? And how does it differ from the political reality

[Raze]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are dealing with ideals and theories, not political reality.

Studies find giving populations an electoral voice with the government that rules over them reduces political violence historically. 
 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Raze

[Terell Kirby]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys are dealing with ideals and theories, not political reality.

Nothing wrong with ideals though, they are often the catalyst in changing political reality.

Development models only go so far. Of course they help broaden perspective but an over focus on them is quite limiting in explaining the totality of a situation.

Yes, there is a case that Palestinian low cognitive development has contributed to their destruction at the hands of the Israeli war machine, but Zionist ideology and racism/anti-Arabism in the West are equally at play.

Effective handling of what an elevated society labels “barbarian” and “savage”, without use ethic cleansing or mass genocide backed by religious ideologies, is a true marker of high development.

This is an ideal worth holding onto in my view.

Edited 9 hours ago by Terell Kirby

[coca]

@Terell Kirby Well said!

[Sandroew]

So dare i say that the most realistic solution to stop the genocide is to get palestinians out of Israel ? Even if morality dictates justice for the palestinians, its not what is realistically achievable.

The first problem with that is that they dont want to leave their home. But keeping them in the limbo of possible negotiations is not helping them.

Even if things could go back like it was before october 7th, it wouldnt be a solution for the situation. Israel isnt a secular country, its a theocracy that regards jewish people higher than non jewish people.

For an initiative like the Arab Peace Initiative to happen, the world needs to be something that the world isnt today. Even if there is a new president in the US in 2029 that doesnt support Israel with their whole being, thats more than 2 more years of this.

And the expectation is to make Israel reform from a theocracy to a secular country ? Thats going to take more than not sending them weapons and prosecuting Netanyahu.

And even if the palestinians leave behind their homes, that doesnt magically solve the whole problem with Israel. It stops the immediate suffering of palestinians.

And you are right to think that displacing nearly 2 million people is not a good solution either. I dont claim to be an expert or even that i have a good understanding of anything really at this point. But i can see how politics needs more nuance than demanding "the right thing".

Also this doesnt mean that the history of Palestine should be white washed. The israeli government should absolutely be held responsible for what they did.

And just because change doesnt happen from one day to the next, it doesnt mean it shouldnt be pursued.

[Terell Kirby]

2 hours ago, Sandroew said:

So dare i say that the most realistic solution to stop the genocide is to get palestinians out of Israel ?

You’d have to convince Palestinians that they are inside of Israel. They don’t consider Israel a legitimate state, let alone something they have to adhere to when it comes mandates to leave what they consider their land.

There is no easy solution, both sides are hell bent in getting their way, the US and current Trump administration is accelerating the conflict with no end in sight.

[Karmadhi]

What I personally find a bit hypocritial from many centrists like Destiny or even non centrists like @Leo Gura is that when it comes to Israel and Palestine they seem to have a very pragmatic ruthless attitude not based on morals but on purely raw power dynamics

Basically, Israel is on the wrong but Palestine is too weak to do anything about it so they must submit and allow Israel to get away with the bad things they did and heavily compromise. Because they cannot revoke the wrong-doings.

Fair

But when it comes to the Russia-Ukranian conflict, they do not have the same stance.

They have the stance that Russia is on the wrong and Ukraine should keep fighting to reverse the wrong-doings of Russia. They should not submit but keep on fighting. Even though Russia is much more powerful than Ukraine and Ukraine realistically has no chance of gaining back any of the land they took nor Russian leaders facing serious trials for war crimes

So basically, there it is a lot more idealistic and moralistic attitude meanwhile on Israel and Palestine it is basically "you lost, now submit to the one that fucked you"

Now I agree that the power difference between Russia and Ukraine is no near as big, but it is big enough that it is still pretty impossible to resolve without any compromise from the side that got unfarily treated (Ukraine here). 

Especially since Trump came to power and basically removed a lot of aid and there is even an air defense Western shortage thanks to the Iran war.

I find it interesting that when I speak with hardcore Pro Palis and I tell them they need to do a 2 state, I get the response (you do  not lower your head when someone comes to your house, takes your house, rapes you and tortures you)

When I say to an Ukranian or someone very pro Ukraine that Ukraine needs to probably make some compromises to Russia I get the response (you do not lower your head when someone comes to your house, takes your house, rapes you and tortures you)

Both sides view it in a similar way even though they will each say 'but that other conflict is different"

Yet 1 side should compromise and submit meanwhile the other is encourged to fight on against impossible odds according to centrists.

I find this a bit bizzare.

Personally I support both Ukraine and Palestine, do not get the wrong idea here. But I feel compromise is needed on both sides, not just for 1 conflict. Ironically I get called here a leftist but when it comes to Ukraine I am extremly realistic and pragmatic and not moralistic at all.

@Raze What do you think about this or I have the wrong idea?

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Karmadhi