PUA is fundamentally bad for YOU.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

This is not so black and white. If you have never done pick up, you don’t really know how much it grows you.

Do you understand the strenght it takes to walk up to a group of 10 people sitting, you remaining completely calm and grounded, starting a conversation with them and making them like you? I would probably have never been able to do this without practicing pick up.

Last night, I walked up alone, to a 10 person group, 9 man, 1 gorgeous blonde. And almost took the blonde from them. This is fucking confidence. What else is this? This is the true strenght of a man who has gone through hell to purify his weaknesses.

Can you do this? If you can’t then don’t shit on this skillset too quickly.

Besides, what’s the alternative? Most guys cannot do online dating. Dating via job is very limited and risky. Same with social circle - it is also not easy to have proper social circle without good social skills.

But yeah, I do get the toxicity. There is definitely a very toxic form of pick up. I used to practice that when I was younger. But nowadays I do a much healthier version of it, and that is what I recommend.

You do not necessarily need PUA. If the goal is simply to become comfortable approaching people and doing socially uncomfortable things, what you may need instead is greater detachment from your ego and from the abstract image of yourself that exists in your head.

My original point was never about the morality of PUA. It was purely about efficiency. There was no moral judgment in my post, but several people interpreted it that way. I was not arguing that PUA is inherently wrong. I was arguing that, for many people here, it is an inefficient and suboptimal strategy for finding a compatible long-term partner.

When someone rejects me, I do not necessarily interpret it as a judgment of my personal value. I see it more as a situation in which compatibility, attraction, or connection simply failed to emerge. Human interactions are shaped by countless factors that go far beyond the ego and its personal narratives.

 

[Ulax]

37 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

A framework that puts one sex of a species as being totally alien? It causes needless seperation when connecting is what it's all about. 

The advice I have isn't isolated to this. It's a given that all frames have limits to them. This one is just especially so. I don't need to have lived experience to apply analytical logic - and if you disqualify based on that I can't help you. And you are free to not take the advice.

Analytical logic is a nice rebrand of blind theorising. I'm going to steal that one  

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Ulax whatever 

[VioleGrace]

With all respect it is obvious for me reading your post that you are not going out to talk to girls and that you are not even trying, 

Cause you put so many projections and bad assumption within it that it seems just like excuses 

You can have kissed model that mean nothing and same if you went up a lot especially using drugs 

Claiming that you natural self can't game can easily be self deception unless you really tried hardcore to do something and be at least slightly good on this THEN at this moment you can tell it is me or not, plus pick up is a spectrum your view is awfully black and white an other indicator that you don't know what you are talking about 

There is some perspectives available in ur post but that are traps not conscious process to have relationship or get good socially 
 

Edited 10 hours ago by VioleGrace

[Jirh]

Yes.

Not only for "nerds". This applies to virtually everyone.

Club girls are not long term relationship material. They're fun, but that's their limit.

To add my 2 cents to the op;

You can develop your social skills to crazy levels, but don't confuse that with finding a great long term partner. These are two different things.

A "nerd" can be socially awkward and still land a hot wife. While someone with skill beyond imagination can end up alone, clubbing and cycling between shallow appearances.

[Miguel1]

1 hour ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

You do not necessarily need PUA. If the goal is simply to become comfortable approaching people and doing socially uncomfortable things, what you may need instead is greater detachment from your ego and from the abstract image of yourself that exists in your head.

My original point was never about the morality of PUA. It was purely about efficiency. There was no moral judgment in my post, but several people interpreted it that way. I was not arguing that PUA is inherently wrong. I was arguing that, for many people here, it is an inefficient and suboptimal strategy for finding a compatible long-term partner.

When someone rejects me, I do not necessarily interpret it as a judgment of my personal value. I see it more as a situation in which compatibility, attraction, or connection simply failed to emerge. Human interactions are shaped by countless factors that go far beyond the ego and its personal narratives.

 

This is all what a healthy version of pick up artistry is about.

- Detaching from your ego / need for outcome / grandiose and false self-image

- Efficient way to meet new people romantically

- PUA is about treating dating as a marketing funnel

Edited 8 hours ago by Miguel1

[AerisVahnEphelia]

1 hour ago, VioleGrace said:

With all respect it is obvious for me reading your post that you are not going out to talk to girls and that you are not even trying, 

Cause you put so many projections and bad assumption within it that it seems just like excuses 

You can have kissed model that mean nothing and same if you went up a lot especially using drugs 

Claiming that you natural self can't game can easily be self deception unless you really tried hardcore to do something and be at least slightly good on this THEN at this moment you can tell it is me or not, plus pick up is a spectrum your view is awfully black and white an other indicator that you don't know what you are talking about 

There is some perspectives available in ur post but that are traps not conscious process to have relationship or get good socially 
 

No I don't think so.

 

1 hour ago, Jirh said:

Yes.

Not only for "nerds". This applies to virtually everyone.

Club girls are not long term relationship material. They're fun, but that's their limit.

To add my 2 cents to the op;

You can develop your social skills to crazy levels, but don't confuse that with finding a great long term partner. These are two different things.

A "nerd" can be socially awkward and still land a hot wife. While someone with skill beyond imagination can end up alone, clubbing and cycling between shallow appearances.

Yes exactly my point. 

 

[VioleGrace]

8 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

No I don't think so.

So you are talking making assumption and conclusion about something you never practiced error 404 in epistemology 

Of course you don't think so cause you don't know any basic truth about it 

[Elliott]

5 minutes ago, VioleGrace said:

So you are talking making assumption and conclusion about something you never practiced error 404 in epistemology 

Of course you don't think so cause you don't know any basic truth about it 

The "escalate physical touch", and pre rehearsed comments of "game" are disingenuous and objectifying

Edited 8 hours ago by Elliott

[AerisVahnEphelia]

1 hour ago, VioleGrace said:

So you are talking making assumption and conclusion about something you never practiced error 404 in epistemology 

Of course you don't think so cause you don't know any basic truth about it 

I don't need to practice war to know that putting a bullet in a kid head is bad for you. (unless you're a psychopath, which is fine if you're one I suppose.)

that sounds moral, but that's not the point here either.
 

Edited 7 hours ago by AerisVahnEphelia

[Yimpa]

11 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

women are like some sort of fucking alien species.

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But you are!

Yup.

[LordFall]

8 hours ago, AION said:

Pick up can´t be done without biting into the forbidden fruit. It is unethical and manipulative by nature especially when you reach high degrees of manipulation and consciousness to see it. And one can´t say it is innocent while keeping a straight face. And that is ok. One just have to be honest about it to oneself. 

Why do you think it's unethical and manipulative by nature? 

A lot of it is innocent, it's just practicing communication and human dynamics at scale. Whether someone turns it toxic or manipulative is up to them and the source they get it from. That's like saying metal is inherently toxic because it has a lot of use cases that can harm beings if you wish it to do so. 

[AION]

35 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Why do you think it's unethical and manipulative by nature? 

A lot of it is innocent, it's just practicing communication and human dynamics at scale. Whether someone turns it toxic or manipulative is up to them and the source they get it from. That's like saying metal is inherently toxic because it has a lot of use cases that can harm beings if you wish it to do so. 

It is too deep to explain. Procreation itself is selfish. If you know you know. Catch 22.

Edited 3 hours ago by AION

[VioleGrace]

5 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

I don't need to practice war to know that putting a bullet in a kid head is bad for you. (unless you're a psychopath, which is fine if you're one I suppose.)

Yet you are doing the same thing rationalizing your weakness and not taking actions  as someone who would tell a soldier you can help a child better putting a bullet in his head cause it is easier to self deceive himself and cut the throat of is ennemy than resolve a problem in a pacific way (unless you like war, which is fine if you do I suppose.)  

Like i don't need to get in your head to see that you are just self deceiving yourself to keep taking the soft way 

Using a reductionist example like your showing again your lack of understanding and epistemology so i will leave this discussion on this.

Self-deception and bias are a beach i guess  

 

Edited 1 hour ago by VioleGrace

[Elliott]

8 minutes ago, VioleGrace said:

Yet you are doing the same thing rationalizing your weakness and not taking actions  as someone who would tell a soldier you can help a child better putting a bullet in his head cause it is easier to self deceive himself and cut the throat of is ennemy than resolve a problem in a pacific way (unless you like war, which is fine if you do I suppose.)  

Like i don't need to get in your head to see that you are just self deceiving yourself to keep taking the soft way 

Using a reductionist example like your showing again your lack of understanding and epistemology so i will leave this discussion on this.

Self-deception and bias are a beach i guess  

 

You're using a false dilemma that pickup is the only way to get over social anxiety.

[VioleGrace]

23 minutes ago, Elliott said:

You're using a false dilemma that pickup is the only way to get over social anxiety.

No i never said this you should reread my post and understand it

And to answer to your comment, is this the only one ? maybe not. is there a better way ? i don't think so

But if you know others and better way i am happy to ear it from you 

And bear in mind that getting out to socialise (what you seem to call pick up) is not just getting over social anxiety, it is one of the main feature yes but just the begining

 

Edited 1 hour ago by VioleGrace

[Valach]

3 hours ago, LordFall said:

Why do you think it's unethical and manipulative by nature? 

A lot of it is innocent, it's just practicing communication and human dynamics at scale. Whether someone turns it toxic or manipulative is up to them and the source they get it from. That's like saying metal is inherently toxic because it has a lot of use cases that can harm beings if you wish it to do so. 

Most of what we consider "normal social skills" is essentially manipulation though. Average guy who doesn't do pickup and goes on a date say from tinder is still gonna be very manipulative.

[Elliott]

18 minutes ago, VioleGrace said:

No i never said this you should reread my post and understand it

 

Ya you did

48 minutes ago, VioleGrace said:

Yet you are doing the same thing rationalizing your weakness and not taking actions  

 

[Raze]

39 minutes ago, Elliott said:

You're using a false dilemma that pickup is the only way to get over social anxiety.

It’s not just social anxiety.

There are many skills necessary for succeeding in dating.

Trying to learn them in your workplace or social circle is like learning break dancing in a minefield. 

[VioleGrace]

52 minutes ago, VioleGrace said:

et you are doing the same thing rationalizing your weakness and not taking actions

 

4 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Ya you did

For the second time you did not understand what i said

i said that he is rationalising the fact that he is not going out too meet women

42 minutes ago, Elliott said:

You're using a false dilemma that pickup is the only way to get over social anxiety.

And again, what are the other way in your opinion ? 

Edited 59 minutes ago by VioleGrace