Drama Alert! Another YTber is calling us a cult! 😈☦️

[Wilhelm44]

27 minutes ago, zurew said:

I updated my post.

You can disagree , but your point does not address the issues that I outlined.

From now on its on Leo to actually respond to those points if he wants to.

I only address the points I feel I can speak to you.

And you're right, the DM's and that kind of stuff is between you and Leo.

But please refrain from labelling everyone who doesn't agree with the cult accusations as suck ups. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[zurew]

5 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

But please refrain from labelling everyone who doesn't agree with cult accusations as suck ups. 

I dont label them as suckups  - I label those as suckups who not just frequently glaze Leo , but those who buy into Leo's idea that he is the most conscious being in the Universe and I refer to people and moderators here who label people "closed minded" who dont want to blindly buy into that idea and im talking about people who almost never ever make any serious criticism of Leo and who are willing to excuse all his behavior no matter what he does.

Edited 9 hours ago by zurew

[Wilhelm44]

4 minutes ago, zurew said:

I dont label them as suckups  - I label those as suckups who not just frequently glaze Leo , but those who buy into Leo's idea that he is the most conscious being in the Universe and I refer to people and moderators here who label people "closed minded" who dont want to blindly buy into that idea and im talking about people who almost never ever make any serious criticism of Leo and who are willing to excuse all his behavior no matter what he does.

Does anyone here actually truly buy into the idea that Leo is without a doubt the most conscious being on the planet ? 

I don't think I've ever seen anyone here literally agreeing with that claim.

It's natural to put the teacher on a bit of a pedestal when we start out.

And then we outgrow that phase.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

13 minutes ago, Wilhelm44 said:

I don't think I've ever seen anyone here literally agreeing with that claim.

I agree I do not think it IS literally agreed to - openly at least. It's the underlying message that is threaded through all communication (and the one you raised) when backed into a corner "I am above you". Authority. This is doubled down on as well. Exemplified in the "Who wants actualized.org retreats?" thread and the offshoot discussion about enlightenment and it's existence. Not sure if you guys recall that one. 

Deferring to the teachings would be the correct way, instead of inserting oneself into them. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Wilhelm44]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I agree I do not think it IS literally agreed to - openly at least. It's the underlying message that is threaded through all communication (and the one you raised) when backed into a corner "I am above you". Authority. This is doubled down on as well. Exemplified in the "Who wants actualized.org retreats?" thread and the offshoot discussion about enlightenment and it's existence. Not sure if you guys recall that one. 

Deferring to the teachings would be the correct way, instead of inserting oneself into them. 

Yeah, I would need more information about the details and context of these conversations to be able to comment.

For example, what was the actual disagreement about in each case.

Another example: if it's a disagreement that just keeps going around in circles, then Leo kind of has the right to invoke his authority here, it is his school after all.

But yeah, one would need transcripts of the actual conversations, otherwise we're just speculating.

Going to revisit that thread, thanks.

Edited 8 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[Wilhelm44]

Also, on the topic of people going to Leo with their realizations and awakening experiences.

I'm pretty sure that if you went to Adyashanti, and told him the details of your awakening experience, he would tell you in no uncertain terms if your realization was not quite as advanced as you thought.

Probably in a slightly less brash way than Leo though.

Edited 9 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[Wilhelm44]

@Natasha Tori Maru  I scanned Leo's comments in the the actualized retreat thread. Is this the quote you were referring to ?

"No. I truly am conscious of God. Virtually no one else is.

Of course you can't know if that is true. But I'm saying it is true.

I am so conscious of God that nothing humans say about God is correct. It's all illusions. And my consciousness of God is not an illusion.

Sounds unfair, but that's how it is. It's nothing personal."

Edited 7 hours ago by Wilhelm44

[Jehovah increases]

Only you can know you are God via direct experience. Only God can know God. And no, this is not a cult. Just don't drink the Cool Aid at the retreat. Just joking with you, don't take life so seriously . When you awaken to infinite consciousness, it feels very alien, but it also feels familiar.

Edited 2 hours ago by Jehovah increases

[UnbornTao]

On 6/11/2026 at 10:16 PM, zurew said:

What do you mean?  @UnbornTao was specifically asking for video evidence there and Leo responded to him.

Do you think Leo makes a difference between turning into an alien and between turning into an alien in front of the camera in his reply there ?

Look: 

But regardless, I havent seem him admitting anywhere that he was wrong about it and at best you can only say in light of the linked thread, that Leo  didnt respond to the video stuff that @UnbornTao was asking about there (under the most charitable interpretation of Leo's reply you can possible go with there - if you want to maintain your position  that Leo didnt  make any additional claims beyond his initial claim about him having an ability to turn into an alien in front of the camera)

Fantasy Awakening. I love that.

I love these discussions because they're sometimes realer than the usual 'spiritual' interactions. They deal with the normal and boring stuff that's actually taking place beneath the rhetoric, the wishful thinking, the claims made, etc. It's just great.

Edited 6 hours ago by UnbornTao

[zurew]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Does anyone here actually truly buy into the idea that Leo is without a doubt the most conscious being on the planet ? 

If you are looking for a sentence that contains that exact set and sequence of words made by someone - in that case , I wont able to give you that  - but again, I think thats a strangely specific  thing to ask for, the same way it was strange for you imo to try to make a relevant distinction between Leo not making any explicit and exact 2026 sentence about him being the most conscious being on the planet, instead of him just making the claim that he is the standard on epistemology and that he is willing trash everyone else except himself on epistemology.(and again, not just related to spirituality, but it was specifically given in response  to and related to what definition of cult ought to be used by everyone).

The main pont there is just that my claim is that there are people and moderators here imo who put Leo above everyone else (including themselves) and they will be defensive about Leo and again wont make any serious criticism about Leo and will usually diss people who make criticisms about Leo and will label them closed minded - Now, if you think there are no such people here, great, then Im wrong and that criticism doesnt target anyone. I obviously think that there are such people, but I wont name them, because im not interested in derailing this thread by fighting with those people right now and im also not interested in providing  data and arguments to defend that specific claim - feel free to disagree or to be skeptical about it.

I think I provided data for a good chunk of my other claims that I made in my main post - feel free to disagree, but I would prefer if you again, wouldnt just go point by point, but if you would provide an overall coherent story that can explain all the facts that I provided in my post (not talking about you explaining my characterization of the data, im talking about you clicking the links, reading through those threads and providing an overall coherent story where you account for all the facts that are relevant and related to Leo in those threads).

Or if you want to go point by point, then show us which specific claims made by me are false and why (and provide supporting data for your claims if you think its necessary to do so) , because I think thats different from you not denying almost any of my claims (you agreeing with almost literally everything descriptively laid down there) and only disagreeing with my operating definition of cult.

Edited 6 hours ago by zurew

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Is there any spiritual group out there who has been better prepared than this one, to look out for the faintest signs of cultish behavior though ?

I think you'd be hard pressed to find one. Probably worth acknowledging that as well.

The fact that we having this storm in a teacup is proof of that.

This type of overconfident and hubristic thinking and thinking one is somehow special could only happen here, thinking that this is somehow the "best prepared place" (and do you have even any experience of other groups you can contrast it to?). If Leo didn't tell you 10x a day that he is the #1 authority on epistemology, I think you would probably not even consider thinking that.

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Respectfully, do you think there might be a small chance that you're projecting some past experiential residues onto this one ?

This was a cheeky joke, bud.

But also respectfully, has Leo displayed psychotic symptoms and other unstable concerning behavior on his journey?

Edited 6 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Wilhelm44]

18 minutes ago, zurew said:

If you are looking for a sentence that contains that exact set of words said by someone, I wont able to give you that  - but again, I think thats a strangely specific  thing to ask for, the same way it was strange for you imo to try to make a relevant distinction between Leo not making any explicit and exact 2026 sentence about him being the most conscious being on the planet, instead of him just making the claim that he is the standard on epistemology and that he is willing trash everyone else except himself.(and again, not just related to spirituality, but it was specifically given in response  to related to what definition of cult ought to be used by everyone).

The main pont there is just that my claim is that there are people and moderators here imo who put Leo above everyone else (including themselves) and they will be defensive about Leo and again wont make any serious criticism about Leo and will usually diss people who make criticisms about Leo and will label them closed minded - Now, if you think there are no such people here, great, then Im wrong and that criticism doesnt target anyone. I obviously think that there are such people, but I wont name them, because im not interested in derailing this thread by fighting with those people right now and im also not interested in providing  data and arguments to defend that specific claim - feel free to disagree or to be skeptical about it.

I think I provided data for a good chunk of my other claims that I made in my main post - feel free to disagree, but I would prefer if you again, wouldnt just go point by point, but if you would provide an overall coherent story that can explain all the facts that I provided in my post (not talking about you explaining my characterization of the data, im talking about you clicking the links, reading through those threads and providing an overall coherent story where you account for all the facts that are relevant and related to Leo in those threads).

Or if you want to go point by point, then show us which specific claims made by me are false and why (and provide supporting data for your claims if you think its necessary to do so) , because I think thats different from you not denying almost any of my claims (you agreeing with almost literally everything descriptively laid down there) and only disagreeing with my operating definition of cult.

Well yeah, ultimately Leo would be the only one able to answer your question as to why it would be necessary to claim to be the most conscious person on the planet.

[Wilhelm44]

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This was a cheeky joke, bud.

But also respectfully, has Leo displayed psychotic symptoms and other unstable concerning behavior on his journey?

It was not my intention to joke or to be cheeky.

Which psychotic symptoms are you referring to ?

[zurew]

47 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Fantasy Awakening. I love that.

I love these discussions because they're sometimes realer than the usual 'spiritual' interactions. They deal with the normal and boring stuff that's actually taking place beneath the rhetoric, the wishful thinking, the claims made, etc. It's just great.

Yeah I dont think that he backed off from him having the ability to become an alien in front of the camera yet or at the very least clarify that he is agnostic on that claim.

Interesting that in the past , @AdeptusPsychonautica was needed to push Leo to walk back his claim about awakening healing you and it solving all of your problems

Quote

That particular statement was overstated, to be fair to you. And I can see why that would arouse skepticism in people like you.

Nevertheless, deep consciousness can indeed resolve and heal many problems in your life. It's not a magic cure for everything. Some problems need to be fixed at the material level. So I will concede that point to you. I exaggerated with that statement. I do have tendency to exaggerate and overstate things sometimes in order to communicate the depth and profundity of these remarkable states of super-human consciousness. Sober words don't really do these states justice.

Although he  quickly switch back and makes a bunch of other claims.

Quote

The truth is that everything that I said about spirituality, consciousness, and psychedelics is a gross understatement. I have accessed states of consciousness which are absolutely beyond anything that could be explained or taught, or that has been accessed by traditional teachers. Doubt me if you like, but I don't care. In these states of consciousness literally every problem is resolved. The problem is how to sustain such consciousness. That's the only real problem.

 

Edited 6 hours ago by zurew

[Wilhelm44]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This type of overconfident and hubristic thinking and thinking one is somehow special could only happen here, thinking that this is somehow the "best prepared place" (and do you have even any experience of other groups you can contrast it to?). If Leo didn't tell you 10x a day that he is the #1 authority on epistemology, I think you would probably not even consider thinking that.

Which other spiritual teacher would you say has put out a more comprehensive body of work on the topic of epistemology ?

(If we didn't think there was something solid here, none of us would be here in the first place.)

[Human Mint]

10 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Feel free to point out what is wrong with my sensemaking.

And If I can use Leo's approach here: this wasn't a situation where we were generally coerced or exploited to do excessively weird or unpleasant things or threatened personally or manipulated towards some nefarious end goal.

Even at the end when doomsday was entertained and solutions were suggested, there was no explicit coercion "we must do this thing", again, just wild beliefs and suggestions being presented (while that was bad enough). And yes those beliefs had their effect even after leaving the group, as I said. But to say it negatively impacted my sensemaking in the nefarious "cult" sense, as if I was brainwashed to be some unquestioning drone, did not occur to me as a relevant issue. It was the fear-based and paranoid beliefs that I felt had an effect.

I also learned a few things from that experience. One thing was that even if you're skeptical, even if you think you're in control and watching something from the outside ("I'm just observing, I'm not really participating"), beliefs creep up from behind and enter through the backdoor. And ultimately, you don't choose what you believe. You believe what you believe and it's a consequence of attention, repetition and what you find significant.

That's maybe one thing to remember when you're shooting up 5-MeO at Leo's not-cult retreat and he's the one who starts believing the ghosts are out to get him.

It was just something worth noticing. It's like the bitternes that follows a former christian after droping his religious indoctrination. I've met such people, you can't trust them. But your experience sounds more like you were watching from the distance.

To be a guardian for your beliefs takes a lot of responsibility. Beliefs is mostly one lying to oneself, ommiting things you did and being exaggeratedly a victim. 

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

Which other spiritual teacher would you say has put out a more comprehensive body of work on the topic of epistemology ?

No match for Ken Wilber for example. I actually think Leo's "original work" (if we can call it that, and I'm not just being overly cynical; claims to originality is a difficult issue) is quite unstructured and relatively simple.

Most videos are more or less rants that go into each other. A video like "Epistemic responsibility" is a re-vamped video of "What is Survival". And the concepts are things you can learn in quite standard graduate and undergraduate courses. I can't actually identify any "grand syntheses" that do not boil down to something like "everything is survival"; no Four Quadrants style systematization, no truly formalized theories, again rants.

And that's to be expected as truly inventing new paradigms or meta-systems like Wilber requires a kind of cognitive complexity that is truly rare. That isn't to say Leo is "simple", but he is less radically inventive and original than what he might claim to be. And that's also to be expected when there is clear hubris like "being the most awake person in existence".

 

5 hours ago, Wilhelm44 said:

(If we didn't think there was something solid here, none of us would be here in the first place.)

This ≠ "the best place". It's so desperate this kind of p-hacking style of argumentation.

Edited 23 minutes ago by Carl-Richard

[zurew]

This one post in particular is very good at targeting most of things that I have issue with.

it speaks for itself.

Edited 4 hours ago by zurew

[Jehovah increases]

Leo is not the only conscious, awake God-released person on the planet.