Leo's blog regarding feminism

[trenton]

https://actualized.org/insights/where-i-agree-and-disagree-with-feminism

I have some positions around feminism that might add nuance to the bullet points Leo listed. I believe there are some complications that are commonly overlooked.

In terms of agreement, all of it looks like common sense. However, there is one point "Women should be paid equally well for doing equal work. (But only if they truly do equal work.) This comes after "Women should not be discriminated against in the workplace." These two go hand in hand. One complication is that using methods to measure gender inequality such as wages is that if you account for the exact positions, then the pay gap largely disappears. The problem is that workplace discrimination also places men in positions that women should be able to reach, thus causing unequal pay due to position access. It can be a qualification problem or discrimination preventing a woman from gaining the opportunity to do equal work to a man and therefore remain in a lower pay range with both men and women, thereby seemingly erasing the gender pay gap. This is a problem with measuring the phenomenon through broad standards as it misses these scenarios.

All other points of agreement seem straight forward with my main concern being the tension between equal work, equal pay, and ongoing discrimination preventing equal work and therefore creating a wage gap or not depending on the frame of reference in terms of measurement. Leo mentions later on that inequality cannot simplistically be measured, which ties into what I am describing as measurements can obscure inequality or make it appear more prevalent than it actually is.

In terms of disagreement, I see more tension. Firstly, "men's objectification of women and men's psychology is merely bad patriarchal social conditioning." In this case, I partially agree but at the same time conditioning is a huge and possibly the main factor when it comes to objectification. For example, there is a long history of relational status being used to confer consent. This gives historical precedent to the entitlement worldview in which women were systematically treated like objects with no right to say no. Marital rape wasn't fully criminalized in the U.S. until 1993, meaning that many men alive in America today are still operating from a worldview in which it is not rape if you use force to make a woman in a relationship have sex with you. This is a strong sign that conditioning plays a huge role in objectification and may be the main factor in this male behavior.

The part that gets more subtle is that although conditioning is important for describing male behavior, there is still an internal sexual attraction that has elements of objectification. This may be what Leo refers to with "merely bad patriarchal social conditioning." It is definitely a factor, but not the only factor. It can be greatly reduced, but likely not eliminated entirely.

In terms of Women needing to be responsible for being attracted to abusive and corrupt men, this could be deeply problematic. When dealing with someone like a psychopath or a serial rapist who puts on a convincing persona with many layers of lies that are difficult to uncover while tailoring his psychological strategies to target a woman's vulnerabilities, it is hard to blame women for being attracted to corrupt and abusive men. In some cases women go on a date with a man who seems completely normal. They then go to his place where a gang then pulls a gun on her, kidnaps her, rapes her, and possibly kills her. I know women who have been in situations like these and it is hard to blame them for being tricked by organized criminals of sex traffickers who threaten to stick a coat hanger inside of you if you don't let them gang rape you. Sadistic offenders are the rarest typology in sex offenders, but it is also genuinely difficult to distinguish a seemingly normal man or woman from gang members involved in organized criminal activities planning to set you up and jump you. In terms of women being partially responsible, many organized criminals use women for specific roles such as targeting caregiving roles or making people feel at ease or lower their guard while they are kidnapping children to sell them to rapists while posing as relatives. There are documented cases and I have witnessed this behavior.

Leo's frame of reference for women being attracted to abusers is probably that there are women who like "bad boys" but then end up getting treated badly. Given that frame of reference, it sounds like we might be screwed in terms of preventing abuse. There are bad boys and women who like bad boys, so I don't see what can be done to stop this dynamic from creating abusive situations. Maybe the only realistic way to stop this dynamic would be to generally raise the consciousness of mankind such as through education in relationships, boundaries, empathy, self-reflection, and other areas. Otherwise if there are bad boys and women who like bad boys, I don't see how else to stop abuse. Is it the case that telling women to take responsibility is about as helpful as telling men to take responsibility? Most low conscious actors tend to just deflect responsibility anyway even if it were true that they are not being responsible. What system could we create that would make men and women more likely to take responsibility rather than taking the path of least resistance which is typically to blame someone else?

A point that jumps out at me is in regard to feminizing men. This has been a big problem in my life. Feminization partially happens when a son is fatherless. In my case, my father was a criminal and I grew up as an only boy with a mother and sisters. On top of that, my maleness was seen as threatening and the people around me were trying to mold me into being gender non-conforming. They made it seem that gayness was almost desirable. This was combined with perpetrator projection linked to assumptions about my nature as a male. I have now become deeply traumatized and conflicted about my sexuality while my father was a heterosexual male who engaged in actual predatory behavior. his gang also did have a woman in it though and she would participate in drug deals and sometimes blackmail people with rape accusations as a means of coercing them for money. Female criminals seem to commonly have male partners in crime as they like to place more distance between themselves and the direct act while manufacturing social situations more indirectly to set people up and manipulate them into vulnerable positions.

There is a point about gender roles and whether or not they should be changed or equalized. I think gender roles probably should be changed such that men do some childcare as well. The logic is simply that it is no longer possible under the current economy for a man to provide for the household like the nuclear family model. A woman must work and often times the economy is such that couples are required to be financially codependent as housing is otherwise too expensive. If women must also work, then it seems unfair to say women should do equal work to men in the workplace, and then women should do more childcare than men. In this case, it seems like it makes sense for men and women to split childcare more equally if women are overburdened due to being expected to maintain traditional gender roles which are simply impossible depending on how the economic situation changes. If traditional gender roles were such that women were restricted from working outside the home, then it seems that society has already drifted very far from traditional gender roles anyway. It seems to me that gender roles are not merely a social construct, but rather they are largely an economic construct as well, beyond our individual attitudes which then adapt to the environment. As economic incentives change, they seem to change gender roles by necessity as women can't stay at home and be only caregivers in many cases now.

Overall, I think the points seem mostly solid. I thought it would be worth adding my perspective to try to stress test some of these points and see what you think.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I made a comment here that overlaps with some of what you speak of (just to contribute to discussion):

 

 

[Jannes]

9 hours ago, trenton said:

In terms of Women needing to be responsible for being attracted to abusive and corrupt men, this could be deeply problematic. When dealing with someone like a psychopath or a serial rapist who puts on a convincing persona with many layers of lies that are difficult to uncover while tailoring his psychological strategies to target a woman's vulnerabilities, it is hard to blame women for being attracted to corrupt and abusive men. In some cases women go on a date with a man who seems completely normal. They then go to his place where a gang then pulls a gun on her, kidnaps her, rapes her, and possibly kills her. I know women who have been in situations like these and it is hard to blame them for being tricked by organized criminals of sex traffickers who threaten to stick a coat hanger inside of you if you don't let them gang rape you. Sadistic offenders are the rarest typology in sex offenders, but it is also genuinely difficult to distinguish a seemingly normal man or woman from gang members involved in organized criminal activities planning to set you up and jump you. In terms of women being partially responsible, many organized criminals use women for specific roles such as targeting caregiving roles or making people feel at ease or lower their guard while they are kidnapping children to sell them to rapists while posing as relatives. There are documented cases and I have witnessed this behavior.

Leo's frame of reference for women being attracted to abusers is probably that there are women who like "bad boys" but then end up getting treated badly. Given that frame of reference, it sounds like we might be screwed in terms of preventing abuse. There are bad boys and women who like bad boys, so I don't see what can be done to stop this dynamic from creating abusive situations. Maybe the only realistic way to stop this dynamic would be to generally raise the consciousness of mankind such as through education in relationships, boundaries, empathy, self-reflection, and other areas. Otherwise if there are bad boys and women who like bad boys, I don't see how else to stop abuse. Is it the case that telling women to take responsibility is about as helpful as telling men to take responsibility? Most low conscious actors tend to just deflect responsibility anyway even if it were true that they are not being responsible. What system could we create that would make men and women more likely to take responsibility rather than taking the path of least resistance which is typically to blame someone else?

It clearly sticked out to me as well as probably the most polarizing one. If I said this openly in public in front of feminist women I think I would get lynched. 

I agree with what was said though, but the phrasing was possibly not careful enough. Obviously people, including women can be victims of crime as there is realistically only so much precaution you can do in life.

The story of the beauty and the beast is deeply rooted in unconscious survival though. Women get attracted to strength and dark triad men have exactly that. A women has the responsibility to go against her unconscious survival instincts and not reward these toxic men. As long as women reward inappropriate behaviour they play a big part in the spreading of toxic men. If a toxic men gets massive amount of pussy should the other men be like "Oh he is such a douche, I wouldnt want to be him even if it would get me laid massively."

[enchanted]

Great post. Here's some more nuances: Men are socialized to work more hours outside the home and thus make more money. Women work more hours inside the home but don't get an official paycheck. Men are also more willing (or socialized to) take higher risk jobs, travel for work, compete for high paying jobs. Men get more money for this but they lose time (and influence) with their kids as a result. Not to mention more likely to die from stress and risk.

Also statistics show women make most of the financial decisions in relationships, spend more money, and have more power when it comes to spending. Men are more willing to spend on women than vice versa. Putting it simply men earn slightly more money and women spend slightly more money on average. These discrepancies should also be addressed if we are to completely level the playing field by equalizing earnings. 

Edited 5 hours ago by enchanted

[Leo Gura]

Serious abusive behavior is still enforceable by law. But women need to stop pretending that they aren't attracted to toxic men.

Women are responsible for who they sleep with. There is no way around that.

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Monster Energy]

Women secretly hate guys that:

Are too nice

Are insecure and doubt themselves

Send long paragraphs / double text

Are too clingy

Are overly emotional

Are always available and have nothing going on

Treat them with respect

Are not funny

Treat them like a celebrity

 

[vibv]

8 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Women secretly hate guys that:

Are too nice

Are insecure and doubt themselves

Send long paragraphs / double text

Are too clingy

Are overly emotional

Are always available and have nothing going on

Treat them with respect

Are not funny

Treat them like a celebrity

 

But all of those could be okay, if he is confident and owns it as his style.

[enchanted]

13 hours ago, trenton said:

 Is it the case that telling women to take responsibility is about as helpful as telling men to take responsibility? Most low conscious actors tend to just deflect responsibility anyway even if it were true that they are not being responsible.

This is correct. MOST actors deflect but not ALL. So asking people to take responsibility is somewhat effective. Men need to learn that being "bad" is low conscious behavior and women need to learn that being attracted to "bad boys" is also low conscious behavior. Slowly more and more people change but it might take hundreds of years. 

Edited 4 hours ago by enchanted

[Terell Kirby]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

women need to stop pretending that they aren't attracted to toxic men.

Our culture won’t allow such a thing.

It’s almost like a shared understanding between all women to never be honest about who they sleep with due to social ramifications.

I think it’s helpful to empathize with women regarding this. Much more acceptable for men to be attracted to toxic women vs. the other way around I feel.

Edited 4 hours ago by Terell Kirby

[eTorro]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But women need to stop pretending that they aren't attracted to toxic men.

Yes. I was "playing" toxic at work by ignoring women. I was testing them. I was so indifferent to them. And paradoxically, they all flock to me. Why? Being toxic stimulates their emotions, challenging their self-image, and how much they are worth. I think women get so much attention from men nowadays that if they stumble upon one that's indifferent to them, they immediately think that the guy is worth considering. Toxic men or attractive men aren't better than non-attractive men. Women are always finding that out. Relying on chemistry and emotions solely is wrong.

[Miguel1]

Haha, when I put on charismatic push-pull seductive game on vs I treat women as humans and with love and empathy from the get-go, the results are day and night.

It's fucking miserable but not surprising at this point in my life anymore.

[Jannes]

21 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Haha, when I put on charismatic push-pull seductive game on vs I treat women as humans and with love and empathy from the get-go, the results are day and night.

It's fucking miserable but not surprising at this point in my life anymore.

Whats your experience after the attraction phase, is game or love & empathy superior?

[Miguel1]

1 minute ago, Jannes said:

Whats your experience after the attraction phase, is game or love & empathy superior?

Attraction needs to be maintained all the time but the deeper you are in the relationship, the less sharp your game needs to be.

Also, depends on the girl. I only end up in relationship with more mature girls, so with them, love & empathy goes a long way.

But to answer your question, in general: girls are willing to put up with shitty behavior way more (as long as they are attracted to you) compared to receive good behaviour, when they are not attracted to you. So in that sense, game is more superior. But again, game doesn't need to be as on point, when you have deepened your relationship with her.

[Jannes]

5 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Attraction needs to be maintained all the time but the deeper you are in the relationship, the less sharp your game needs to be.

Also, depends on the girl. I only end up in relationship with more mature girls, so with them, love & empathy goes a long way.

But to answer your question, in general: girls are willing to put up with shitty behavior way more (as long as they are attracted to you) compared to receive good behaviour, when they are not attracted to you. So in that sense, game is more superior. But again, game doesn't need to be as on point, when you have deepened your relationship with her.

Alright that makes sense.

Also in my experience, how something starts largely shapes the dynamic that is to come. If you "gamed" a girl that sets up a power dynamic in the relationship. 

[trenton]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But women need to stop pretending that they aren't attracted to toxic men.

Women are responsible for who they sleep with. There is no way around that.

I have an idea for testing this point. What would it look like if the gender roles were reversed? Suppose there was a man who was attracted to a toxic woman. This woman was then severely abusive such as by damaging contraceptives (which men might also do) or she could be psychologically, financially, and physically abusive. The man is afraid to leave her because of things like financial entanglement or maybe he is emotionally attached to her, hoping things will get better if he just tries harder.

What would we say to a man in this situation? Would we apply the same standards that we would apply to a woman? How responsible is the man for this situation, and is it the same as a woman who sleeps with a man who secretly sabotaged contraceptives to cause a pregnancy?

When a man is attracted to a toxic woman, how does it typically work? Is it because he is in the moment turned on by bitchiness which he later comes to regret when he gets stuck with her? There probably are men who are attracted to bad girls ending up in these situations.

[Miguel1]

33 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Alright that makes sense.

Also in my experience, how something starts largely shapes the dynamic that is to come. If you "gamed" a girl that sets up a power dynamic in the relationship. 

Most girls need that power dynamic. They need to feel like they are chasing, which makes the guy feel special to them. It's immature and unconscious monkey behavior, but what to do. That's why we have this thread and Leo's answer to it.

Edited 2 hours ago by Miguel1

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Regardless of women and what they are attracted to, the point around phrasing/clarity I raised still stands.

[Jannes]

On 24.4.2026 at 2:22 PM, Natasha Tori Maru said:

"That women are victims. Women need to be more responsible for sexual abuse. Women are not innocent victims in all this. Women need to be responsible for being attracted to abusive and corrupt men."

I think this has some truth in it, but it's maybe poorly phrased. I think the point does have traction in that people can and should develop better judgment in partners. People can ignore red flags, rationalize bad behaviour, or repeat unhealthy patterns. There is value in teaching both men and women how to recognise manipulation, coercion, and early warning signs of abuse.... Which is about self protection and growth.

The murky part is that this can lead to “they chose it, so they share responsibility for the abuse.” This is the part I think reaches a bit far and might require rephrasing. It’s like saying someone who invests in a fraudulent scheme is partly responsible for the duplicitous scheme. They may have made a bad decision, but the wrongdoing still sits with the arsehole fraudster.

The only solution is raising ones awareness - which rolls back to boundaries, self growth and protection. I partly agree, partly don't. Probably just a phrasing issue.

I'll add to your list! 

 - Bodily autonomy isn’t exclusively a women’s issue. Men can lose it too  - ie conscription.

Quoting this here. I think its a bit much to ask to click on the link and then to go back here again. 

But girls are partially responsible for the schemes existance. If they turned down toxic men then there would be far fewer of them. 

Of course men could decide not to be toxic at all .. but then they wouldnt get a partner .. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

33 minutes ago, Jannes said:

But girls are partially responsible for the schemes existance. If they turned down toxic men then there would be far fewer of them. 

It is one thing to say we need to be more conscious of what behaviour points to a potentially bad mate. And another to blame the victim. The line of responsibility needs to be expounded upon clearer imo. Because women & men are responsible for actions they take. But the consequences and outcomes aren't guaranteed or deserved (in this case, abuse isn't guaranteed when someone appears Machiavellian/dark triad).

Moreover, men also pick toxic women. Beauty blinds us to red flags. Like women, men need to become aware of their bias to avoid abuse from women. 

Both sexes do the same thing in different domains. 

If you read my post carefully, I am not disagreeing with the argument in question. Merely pointing out the wordying could be cleaner.

33 minutes ago, Jannes said:

Of course men could decide not to be toxic at all .. but then they wouldnt get a partner .. 

One doesn't need to reduce their own integrity in this way, as it isn't the only way to attract women. In fact - you will avoid attracting a women with attachment issues and pathologies if you do avoid this. 

Not saying there aren't a subset of women who are attracted to dark triad traits. 

Edited 59 minutes ago by Natasha Tori Maru