I'm still not fully accepting this "hard work" and effort thing

[mmKay]

If life is consistently a grind, you're doing something wrong

[Joshe]

12 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Not resisting the chronic issue - suggesting professional help. Chemical imbalance is what needs to be considered.

Unless you are happy to claim you are equipped to deal with suicide, depression and suicidal ideation? Which is the context here. 

I am saying if the issue is that bad, there could possibly be a neurotransmitter issue/imbalance or serious psychiatric issue at play.

 

Clinical support can be useful. But OP's distress appears to map cleanly onto their environment. Not that mental health should be ignored, just that fixing structure appears to be the lowest hanging fruit with the highest potential leverage. It's possible this alone solves the current problems. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

5 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Clinical support can be useful. But OP's distress appears to map cleanly onto their environment. Not that mental health should be ignored, just that fixing structure appears to be the lowest hanging fruit with the highest potential leverage. It's possible this alone solves the current problems. 

Possible, but there is additional context 

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Possible, but there is additional context 

Lol. You tryna pull rank on me bro? Leo rubbing off on you? 😂

Does "additional context" = your pre-existing lens?

Here's my read: 

I think you successfully operationalized courage, Kaizen, tiny actions, mindset shifts, etc.,  and after ample effort, they worked for you, so you concluded they're universal tools. But they worked because you had the base and circumstances. The tools didn't create your stability, they optimized it.

Now, you're trying to give OP optimization tools when they need foundation tools. And when the tools don't fit, you don't question the tools, you question OP (maybe it's chemical, maybe they need a professional). The tools can't be the problem, right? And external reality can't be the problem, right? It MUST BE internal, and if it can't be overcame internally, it must need a professional.

If you've never been trapped in serious survival mode, it's hard to grasp how much it dominates your experience. It's not just a stressor, it's THE stressor that makes everything else much harder. The solution is to fix it, not optimize around it.

We've had a good joust. Time to pop a bottle and watch some fireworks. Happy New Year! 😁

Edited December 31, 2025 by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe nothing you have said is a fair assessment. You make many assumptions. About myself. My history. My intentions.

I am not sure why you speak in such a way.

 

Edited yesterday at 02:03 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

3 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Joshe nothing you have said is a fair assessment. You make many assumptions. About myself. My history. My intentions.

I am not sure why you speak in such a way.

You're right. Sorry about that. My intention was to sketch out how the position might arise. It was my best guess. Feed me data and I'll update. lol

 

[Ulax]

I'd argue though that a key thing is self-belief. If you believe that you will be successful then the hard work has a very different flavour to it.

Often that belief stems from having earlier corrective experiences. For example, seeing progress from a gym program.

Hard work for a depressed person who has struggled to meet their previous goals, and hard work for someone with many accomplishments behind them, is rather different I'd argue. 

So, if you are someone who has struggled to meet goals, then you'll need to get some corrective experiences and then your relationship to hard work will change. At least that is my theory.

 

Edited yesterday at 10:14 AM by Ulax

[Schizophonia]

On 30/12/2025 at 3:25 PM, Lyubov said:

Go live your life bro. Why even care if there’s some challenges in the way to overcome? You literally have two choices. Flipping my burger (don’t forget the fries) or being responsible and doing something to make your life better. That’s literally the only two choices. If you choose the first please don’t forget the ketchup. 

You're being dismissive out of childish narcissism, but serving people in the restaurant industry is a useful profession.

My first decree when I become Secretary General of the Second Comintern will be to mandate that everyone with bullshit jobs (which includes most people in the personal development field) spend at least three days a week collecting garbage, cleaning public restrooms, or, indeed, serving burgers.

 

Useful jobs.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Schizophonia

[Schizophonia]

3 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

You're being dismissive out of childish narcissism, but serving people in the restaurant industry is a useful profession.

My first decree when I become Secretary General of the Second Comintern will be to mandate that everyone with bullshit jobs (which includes most people in the personal development field) spend at least three days a week collecting garbage, cleaning public restrooms, or, indeed, serving burgers.

 

Useful jobs.

 

Human ego and in particular masculin ego is structured to flourish by focusing attention toward "unpersonal" objets (what Lacan called the symbolic order); at the expense of one's self-image.

 

So  people with strong egos :

1)They never do anything interesting, as I stated against Leo in another thread; because to do quality work you have to be able to put "yourself" aside; The people they cited were essentially heirs and swindlers; cheaters in general.

2)Are not masculine; the self-image is anti-masculine by nature, so this psychological configuration makes one physically fearful, with weak social preferences (asociability, passive aggression, misogyny, preference for asian women, sometimes a desire to be dominated...).

3)They cannot be happy and sociable because of a rejection of the mirror stage; because attention is recaptured, alienated by the self-imaginary.

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Schizophonia

[Lyubov]

11 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

You're being dismissive out of childish narcissism, but serving people in the restaurant industry is a useful profession.

My first decree when I become Secretary General of the Second Comintern will be to mandate that everyone with bullshit jobs (which includes most people in the personal development field) spend at least three days a week collecting garbage, cleaning public restrooms, or, indeed, serving burgers.

 

Useful jobs.

 

I was not being dismissive. I was communicating in a way I believe would get across to OP. I’ve come to learn not everyone should get the same type of response based on the issue they have and the details they provide. I also gave a more detailed answer as well if you look. I can tell you now, OP will be dismissed by the world and broke with this self deception game. You can join him too with putting my fries in the bag if you want but you need to realize the gravity of the situation here that comes with this type of self sabotage. Roosters will come home and it won’t be pretty when you’re 40 with no money and a lack of valuable skills because you were confused about having to commit and show up everyday to make your life better. 

[Lyubov]

There’s more to what OP said, specifically “feeling forced.” I would encourage OP to self inquire on why that feels forced? Why create tension to begin with? What do you believe exactly? The world only appears to push back when you create beliefs and expectations and judgements about how things should be, when you question your value. There is nothing inherently “hard” nor pushing back at you when you show up everyday to do what is right for yourself and your life, it can even be quite confrontational stuff like a job that pushes you out of your comfort zone  (there’s still space and stillness between it) Can it be a bit tiring and repetitive, sure, honor that. Sometimes you do need to adjust your perspective and def do not be hard on yourself when you fall off the bike or want  to go to a familiar place of playing the victim or judging everything you wish was different. keep it simple, set your intentions and just continually show up with no expectations and no insistence of having to control it all for it to work out. Use your head, be responsible and accept whatever unfolds with your heart. The forcing is resistance YOU create dude to your beliefs and judgements about reality. Nothing is inherently hard (resistance) but many things are challenging and require a ton of responsibility and commitment to build. Most people create a feeling of hardness as a byproduct to deter themselves from trying because they’d rather feel the hard feelings than plunging into the unknown and how it will all work out. 

Edited 13 hours ago by Lyubov

[Lyubov]

On 12/28/2025 at 2:17 PM, blankisomeone said:

Because like, a lot of teachers talk of the possibility of making an abundant living doing something that one is passionate about and that comes EASY... Others are adamant about the hard work and effort mentality. So, what is it?

Do I really have to swallow the reality that it's gonna be harsh and effortful? It feels like hard work is forced, I don't know..

It’s because this teaching is a bit tricky to convey through language since people use different words and have their subtleties to their experience.

Yes, you can discover an abundant life that comes easy but not in the sense of you giving up all responsibility and avoidance. 

think of it like there being an abundance of energy within that is realized and comes to you when you cut through all the bullshit. You can be trusted with this energy because you didn’t go out and force and fight your way to it. This simultaneous flow and ease exists still with getting up everyday when that fucking annoying alarm goes off and still doing some of the tasks and whatnot you may not always prefer to do in that moment cause it’s a bit uncomfortable or not as interesting as some of the others. This is WU WEI. It’s a simultaneous dance of yin and yang. There is abundance and ease that flows through all which one can gently open up to by releasing confusions and limiting beliefs. Simultaneous there is the self responsibility of committing to this and accepting life as it is (clocking into work and doing some stuff you may not wanna do today). Aligning with the natural order of the universe. The natural order for you may be needing to put a lot of time into study something you have chose you believe is right for you life that leads you onward to something else. Passion / joy is an emotion we create by seeing the value in everything we do as valuable and leading us to deeper realization and uncovering of our inner light. Passion is the excitement of what is unfolding, joy is the recognition of the love and beauty in it. No need to get caught up in feeling words. 

[Schizophonia]

22 minutes ago, Lyubov said:

I was not being dismissive. I was communicating in a way I believe would get across to OP. I’ve come to learn not everyone should get the same type of response based on the issue they have and the details they provide. I also gave a more detailed answer as well if you look. I can tell you now, OP will be dismissed by the world and broke with this self deception game. You can join him too with putting my fries in the bag if you want but you need to realize the gravity of the situation here that comes with this type of self sabotage. Roosters will come home and it won’t be pretty when you’re 40 with no money and a lack of valuable skills because you were confused about having to commit and show up everyday to make your life better. 

If one is excessively lethargic they may need psychological help, sometimes medication, and/or a review of their lifestyle; things that can dull motivation such as drugs, poor sleep or poor diet, pornography, YouTube videos/shorts, Instagram etc., social networks in general…

[Ulax]

37 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

If one is excessively lethargic they may need psychological help, sometimes medication, and/or a review of their lifestyle; things that can dull motivation such as drugs, poor sleep or poor diet, pornography, YouTube videos/shorts, Instagram etc., social networks in general…

Agreeed 

 

 

[Indra Rachmaditya]

@Joshe I read all your responses and some others but you are the most understanding, most practical and most applicable at the same time. You reminded me of a person with yellow spiral dynamics is about with complexity and practical at the same time.

I don't even have a problem like OP (maybe I am in different level) but i can relate to you a lot.

I assume you read some of Robert Fritz's work about structural problem? Am I correct?
One of his book is "The Path of Least Resistance".

Edited 11 hours ago by Indra Rachmaditya
add more questions

[Joshe]

Thanks @Indra Rachmaditya! I'm glad you liked it. Yes, I forgot all about that book. Seems like I read it about 10 years ago.

[trenton]

I struggle with this a lot as well. I used to have a passion for chess I pursued constantly, hoping to become a professional player. However, this was interrupted and I never had a realistic chance to make this happen despite my efforts partially due to structural barriers beyond my control. Once this happened it became obvious to me that the passion story is romanticized and doing what you love is often a fairytale that isn't true for most people. The outcome is that I looked for passion in many different directions and struggled to find anything compelling. I am effectively looking for hard work for the sake of survival when survival itself is not rewarding to me. Therefore, I sometimes wonder if I should choose death instead. There is no reward for hard work without passion other than a meaningless life as a wage slave in which we constantly lie to ourselves about our true feelings. I have a hard time finding motivation to work without answering the question "why shouldn't I kill myself?" Why should I suffer for no conceivable gain whatsoever?

So far the closest thing to meaningful work I found would be systems thinking, but the problem is that I'm caught in the system. I don't see any traditional career path that would satisfy me. It's almost like I would have to start my own business or system to find something I can be proud of. Perhaps the problem is that I lack the knowledge of business and I don't know what thought process I'm supposed to use to find openings I could create. I end up just drawing a blank when I try to think of a million dollar idea.

This seems to be my experience with hard work and passion because I haven't really worked hard on anything since I studied constantly to become a professional chess player. Once that was revealed to not be a realistic option I just lost motivation to put on any comparable effort toward anything else. Instead I end up in hospitals due to recurring thoughts of suicide.

[Joshe]

@trenton Just curious. If someone handed you over a gig that brings in $50k/yr, and you were plenty capable of handling it, would that change your entire outlook or would you still feel stuck?

[Mayonnaise]

passion isn't always given. sometimes you need to build skill in something before it can become a passion, which takes time for the mind to build on that thing

[Joseph Maynor]

When you're motivated to do something, you're on board so the pain is endured with a kind of pride not a feeling of rolling a boulder up a hill indefinitely.  The trick is to get motivated, and stay motivated, to form new habits so you can get the results you want via the changes needed.