Some Can't Be Helped?

[gettoefl]

The stages of awakening are as follows. First know peace. Then extend peace. Next see peace. Finally be peace. In that process, a someone who is not you might very well choose peace too. That's the best you can do and hope for. Words are obstacles and don't help a bit. All this is in the mind only. Don't leave home without it.

[Joshe]

@Natasha Tori Maru

I've had a taste of that state as well, but one thing I noticed was missing in that state was thinking. Thinking was replaced by perception of experience and action. My actions were prompted by the environment and pre-existing behavior patterns, no thinking involved.

But I don't see how this state could persist in a situation where one has to generate new strategies and actions over long timeframes where you're trying to oppose reality to create something new. 

Maybe it could persist in environments where you're already established and competent, but what happens in an environment where things actively resist you over long periods of time, where failure and friction persists? 

A few questions: 

• In such a state, is it possible to have "values" or a "vision"?
• If there's no thinker, where are the values and vision located? Surely inside a self structure? 

And a really interesting question: 

• Is it possible to think without activating the self structure?

What if thinking itself requires a self structure? I intuit that more often than not, it does.

You can see a tree without modeling yourself in relation to it, but the moment you think "what should I do about this tree" - you're back, because thought positions things in relation to each other, including you in relation to possibilities.

I'm not sure it's possible to impose our will onto reality without thinking and activating the self structure. 

My main idea is: the non-dual state is incompatible with strategic thinking. I'm not saying you can operate from both, just that you can't operate from both at the same time, and you have to choose one or the other based on goals and circumstances. 

From my experience, when thinking turns on, the self turns on. Self just comes with the territory. If I care about imposing my will onto reality, I need thought, and therefore, self. 

I want to shape reality, not to experience it with no friction. I accept friction as the cost of imposing my will. 

No self, no long-term goals. That's a high price to pay for equanimity. lol 

Just some exploratory thoughts.

Edited Wednesday at 07:13 PM by Joshe

[Ponder]

50 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

The stages of awakening are as follows. First know peace. Then extend peace. Next see peace. Finally be peace. In that process, a someone who is not you might very well choose peace too. That's the best you can do and hope for. Words are obstacles and don't help a bit. All this is in the mind only. Don't leave home without it.

Well said ! 

[theleelajoker]

48 minutes ago, Joshe said:

@Natasha Tori Maru

I've had a taste of that state as well, but one thing I noticed was missing in that state was thinking. Thinking was replaced by perception of experience and action. My actions were prompted by the environment and pre-existing behavior patterns, no thinking involved.

But I don't see how this state could persist in a situation where one has to generate new strategies and actions over long timeframes where you're trying to oppose reality to create something new. 

Maybe it could persist in environments where you're already established and competent, but what happens in an environment where things actively resist you over long periods of time, where failure and friction persists? 

A few questions: 

• In such a state, is it possible to have "values" or a "vision"?
• If there's no thinker, where are the values and vision located? Surely inside a self structure? 

And a really interesting question: 

• Is it possible to think without activating the self structure?

What if thinking itself requires a self structure? I intuit that more often than not, it does.

You can see a tree without modeling yourself in relation to it, but the moment you think "what should I do about this tree" - you're back, because thought positions things in relation to each other, including you in relation to possibilities.

I'm not sure it's possible to impose our will onto reality without thinking and activating the self structure. 

My main idea is: the non-dual state is incompatible with strategic thinking. I'm not saying you can operate from both, just that you can't operate from both at the same time, and you have to choose one or the other based on goals and circumstances. 

From my experience, when thinking turns on, the self turns on. Self just comes with the territory. If I care about imposing my will onto reality, I need thought, and therefore, self. 

I want to shape reality, not to experience it with no friction. I accept friction as the cost of imposing my will. 

No self, no long-term goals. That's a high price to pay for equanimity. lol 

Just some exploratory thoughts.

@Joshe

I can - to a degree - relate to what Natasha describes. Can't answer for her, but in my impression, you're overthinking stuff.

For instance, I would question the assumption that shaping reality has to come with friction or they that it requires thought. 

I would also question the assumption that there's no long term strategic action without thinking. It's not that there's no long term thinking - it's just not "you" that does it.

It's a higher intelligence you're aligning with. Ask yourself: where do your long term goals come from? So which will are you actually executing?

My advice: Set your (long term) intention, don't think about the "how" and follow the path that is being created while situations, opportunities etc happen. 

Approach it like an experiment, like a research project. Will be fun

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:42 PM by theleelajoker

[Ishanga]

17 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

@Joshe

I can - to a degree - relate to what Natasha describes. Can't answer for her, but in my impression, you're overthinking stuff.

For instance, I would question the assumption that shaping reality has to come with friction or they that it requires thought. 

I would also question the assumption that there's no long term strategic action without thinking. It's not that there's no long term thinking - it's just not "you" that does it.

It's a higher intelligence you're aligning with. Ask yourself: where do your long term goals come from? So which will are you actually executing?

My advice: Set your (long term) intention, don't think about the "how" and follow the path that is being created while situations, opportunities etc happen. 

Approach it like an experiment, like a research project. Will be fun

 

 

Yes.. Built within all of Us is Desire, this is not a Thinking Process.  All of Us mostly want to be More than What we are Right Now. but More What? Ultimately You want Total Freedom, no Body/Mind/Emotional restrictions, but if that happens then Your Gone!

For those that want to stick around, they just have to figure out one thing, where is their natural talent or skill in?  Via a high level of Consciousness, You have Clarity that most don't, you see what is ahead and can navigate most all obstacles, yes challenges arise but you don't stress over it, your intelligence is on high alert at all times, none of this has anything to do with thinking and needing to create intent, that is already there and Your super charged up, its just in what area of life You want to go in..for Me it was Martial Arts and Yoga/Wellbeing coaching! Pick Your area of interest and skill then just do it, no overthinking needed!

[Bjorn K Holmstrom]

Thank you both. @Natasha Tori Maru, your specific example of managing construction bids and Gantt charts was exactly the proof of concept my analytical mind needed.

I realized I was holding onto a belief that friction = fuel. That if I didn't feel the resistance/anxiety, the heavy stones wouldn't move.

But reading your description, I see that friction is actually just heat loss: wasted energy. What you describe sounds more like becoming a superconductor: zero resistance allows for massive amounts of energy/action to flow through without the system overheating (burnout).

And @Ishanga, the shift to do what is needed resonates deeply. It moves the motivation from neurotic self-preservation to systemic necessity. If the me isn't the bottleneck, the work just happens because the situation demands it.

I actually felt a physical release of tension reading these replies. Time to test this effortless construction in the real world.

[BlessedLion]

16 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Do we think others help us, or is it that we help ourselves? 

Maybe we can recieve a push that causes a stumble and realignment - but it is *us* that does the realigning.

In my experience 

Ture, I think it's a balance, teachers can help extract what's already within and inspire us and help us see the way with less distraction and traps, but we also have to do the heavy lifting and inner work

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Ishanga @theleelajoker @BlessedLion @Bjorn K Holmstrom 

Thank you - I appreciate all the alternate views and feedback. 

@theleelajoker you are on point 🙏

@Ishanga I can see the overlap with what Sadhguru teaches here, I stumbled upon my own weird interpretation and it appears to align across the board with a lot of other teachings 😊

@BlessedLion it's always both isn't it? Empty and full. Inside and outside. All of this work is running into constant paradox which really emphasises how there is some higher intelligence and the mind fails with its concepts.

@Bjorn K Holmstrom trust and surrender were key to getting to a point of flow in my work. It was a gradual process of integrating and cleaning up. Slowly, slowly I found myself in a state of effortlessness as I went deeper into trust and surrender - which was the total opposite of my previous modus operandi!

@Joshe I am not really non-dualist. Maybe that describes my state? I am not sure what words can assist you from me, as I perceive you to be locked within the constructs of the mind. I couldn't understand where I am from, on an intellectual level. Trust and surrender might be the biggest next steps for you in process. Thoughts happen and make my work happen, but without attachment to outcome, a lot of the mischievous attachment and emotional angst the ego introduces are absent. I have no control at all. I just act when I should - which goes back to @Ishanga's post. This is why it feels effortless like the body just does it - my energy is no longer wasted in judgements from the ego. I am not 'cant wait to get his done so I can go home' 'need to do this because I am anxious' 'dont like this task' 'cant wait for lunchbreak'. There is no resistance to experience. There is preference to some experience that makes me who I am. But no judgement and resistance because experience feels like it happens through me. I cannot judge myself.

I think you get to a stage where you understand you need to be in touch with the wisdom to know when to act, and when to wait. And it does feel as if there is a higher order of things that one taps into to participate in this process. You simply take action to arrange circumstances to increase the probability of a desired outcome.

When I look at a building successfully constructed and handed over - I do not really recognise I did that. It was just a set of happenings that lead to it. I just took action when I should.

Edited Thursday at 03:51 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe I had a long think on how this process I engage in works and how I understand it integrating into reality and making shit happen. Or achieving shit, doing, succeeding etc. Went for a run for 60 minutes with this topic as my contemplation

I think you are caught up a bit regarding the spiritual path, its progression and what is to come. There was, for me - in my experience, a clear path; growing up, learning concepts, mastery etc. And then - disintegration. Deconstruction. A build up, and a tear down. A relearning of what I had forgotten. Or a forgetting of all I had learnt. Both the same thing. 

I think the next steps on the path for you aren't clear - and your fear could be wrapped up in the uncertainty of the path yet walked. The potholes and rocks you cannot see below your feet, still in relative darkness. You are attempting to use the logical, thought driven & conceptual mind to 'see' the next steps. To project future outcomes and how things may play out. Hey - I may be wrong here - but I speak only to this because this used to be me, also.

And so, with that preamble out of the way. I might move toward - what is a thought in your words, and understanding?

Deconstructing this and launching into terrifying enquiry really turned me inside out on the path. Because I reached a point where I realized this is all mind. All mind. And that a thought is simply a contraction of energy. A wavering of consciousness. I movement of awareness. That is literally all I could bring myself to recognize is as. I soon made the connection that a thought - being a simple wavering/contraction of energy/mind - was no different to a chair. Or matter of any type. The constituents of a chair, broken down; wood, material, atoms, electrons, neutrons, quarks - all energy 'wavering', 'contracting', 'vibrating' at different levels. All forms of consciousness. All the same. All in unity. All infinite.

I distinctly remember suddenly being aware I had no claim to my thoughts. My thoughts are the same as perceptions. As matter. As any other part of the reality we inhibit. 

The distinction broke down.

So when I operate from a state of claiming 'I just do' or 'The body moves and does as it will' I do not necessarily claim I am not thinking - because all is mind, all is thinking, all is matter, all is perception. It is all the same shit to me. I simply no longer make claim to any thought. There is no effort. So all appears to rise as an impulse or instinct within the moment. I just act on what is highest priority. But it is not a conscious thing. It is a being thing. 

There is no distinction between thought or any anything else. It is all the same. So, thinking happens. Perceptions happen. Achievements are had. But not by me. By the intelligence behind consciousness. God, if you will. 

This is where trust and surrender come in. I know we have spoken on this in the past. I recall a lot of resistance to this from you. I perceive it is your identification with your intellect and thinking mind that is the block.

Surrender and trust are what put you in alignment with the greater intelligence and flow behind effortless power.

Anyway, maybe none of this will hit home - I surely do not mean this as an attack or lecture - merely to try to use words in a futile attempt to explain something that really cannot be explained with words unless you reside in the state of being. To experience truth.

Edited yesterday at 04:02 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Salvijus]

I think it would be more accurate to say that some are not yet ready rather than helpless. Sooner or later everyone's time will come to move forward. 

[Rigel]

4 hours ago, Salvijus said:

I think it would be more accurate to say that some are not yet ready rather than helpless. Sooner or later everyone's time will come to move forward. 

Across lifetimes maybe. Within this one, I think it’s less accurate to say this. Most people will die lost in a prison of their own making without any understanding that they are doing it & trying to help doesn’t matter cause they already think they know every thing & the whole world is going to shit, bla-bla-bla(or some other bullshit story). My entire family is like that.

I appreciate your perspective. It is more compassionate. Which has it’s own kind of value. Paradoxically, it’s probably easier to help (some) people with your frame of mind even though it’s less accurate.

[Salvijus]

@Rigel  idea that some people are eternally doomed to not grow an inch and there's no power in the universe that can change that doesn't sit right with me. I'm not buying it. 

Edited 21 hours ago by Salvijus

[Looks]

Nobody is ethernally doomed in prison as you can get out after a time . But yeah some ppl are improsoned forever regardless of money. So the bars being present physically don't make matters different .

[Salvijus]

@Looks I did a bit of edit. 

[Salvijus]

Truth always prevails, no ignorance is eternal. 

[Joshe]

@Natasha Tori Maru @theleelajoker

Thank you for taking the time and your thoughtful replies. I appreciate it.

My case is a bit unusual. I'm no longer a spiritual seeker. I dropped the search because I saw what it offered and wasn't very interested. For a long time, I thought it was a matter of me just not putting in the work. Then, I figured out the path itself is not compatible with how life wants to express through me.

Curiosity + construction + coherence-seeking. That's my engine. It doesn't matter if it's me or God acting these things out. It just matters that they are acted out. From my perspective, whether I experience inner peace or not is secondary to this expression. 

I think life is expressing through you as surrender and peace, and through me as exploration and creation. I don't experience mine as ego - just a different way of participating. I don't treat one as higher than the other. If I wanted to optimize for inner peace, I agree that your orientation would be better for that.

It's possible I just never progressed far enough on the spiritual path and just said fuck it, I quit. But it's also possible the spiritual path can rightly be rejected.

I agree that a higher intelligence is animating all of life. That recognition persists as a hum in the background, but I choose to not amplify it by surrendering my faculties, as I've done that before, to the detriment of what I am. 

@Natasha Tori Maru Thanks for the additional clarifications and your contemplative effort. Means a lot. 

Edited 19 hours ago by Joshe

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe thank you so much for the reply ❤️

I think I gathered that you had actively stopped on the path, somewhere along the line... Or I felt there was a change in approach from you.

I dunno, but there was something I noticed. 

Tbh there's a lot of grace and courage in your above statement - respect 😁

 

[Rigel]

@Salvijus Look at history

[Salvijus]

8 hours ago, Rigel said:

@Salvijus Look at history

There's no example in history that someone would be eternally stuck to not ever grow an inch. Every experience in life in some way contributes to a person's growth. It's the nature of life. It's not for us to judge or understand all the intricacies of their journey. 

Edited 9 hours ago by Salvijus

[gettoefl]

Growth is who you're around. If you hang around a Jesus you grow. You are the sum of the 5 people you hang around with. Choose your mates and medias well. If you're a Jesus you can't help but help. The vibration infects all. People feel it by climbing a tree and spotting you approaching a mile off. You already know peace but your ego sneakily redefined it as comfort. You already know peace because you are peace. A Jesus will always help. He's still around.

Edited 3 hours ago by gettoefl