Some Can't Be Helped?

[gettoefl]

The stages of awakening are as follows. First know peace. Then extend peace. Next see peace. Finally be peace. In that process, a someone who is not you might very well choose peace too. That's the best you can do and hope for. Words are obstacles and don't help a bit. All this is in the mind only. Don't leave home without it.

[Joshe]

@Natasha Tori Maru

I've had a taste of that state as well, but one thing I noticed was missing in that state was thinking. Thinking was replaced by perception of experience and action. My actions were prompted by the environment and pre-existing behavior patterns, no thinking involved.

But I don't see how this state could persist in a situation where one has to generate new strategies and actions over long timeframes where you're trying to oppose reality to create something new. 

Maybe it could persist in environments where you're already established and competent, but what happens in an environment where things actively resist you over long periods of time, where failure and friction persists? 

A few questions: 

• In such a state, is it possible to have "values" or a "vision"?
• If there's no thinker, where are the values and vision located? Surely inside a self structure? 

And a really interesting question: 

• Is it possible to think without activating the self structure?

What if thinking itself requires a self structure? I intuit that more often than not, it does.

You can see a tree without modeling yourself in relation to it, but the moment you think "what should I do about this tree" - you're back, because thought positions things in relation to each other, including you in relation to possibilities.

I'm not sure it's possible to impose our will onto reality without thinking and activating the self structure. 

My main idea is: the non-dual state is incompatible with strategic thinking. I'm not saying you can operate from both, just that you can't operate from both at the same time, and you have to choose one or the other based on goals and circumstances. 

From my experience, when thinking turns on, the self turns on. Self just comes with the territory. If I care about imposing my will onto reality, I need thought, and therefore, self. 

I want to shape reality, not to experience it with no friction. I accept friction as the cost of imposing my will. 

No self, no long-term goals. That's a high price to pay for equanimity. lol 

Just some exploratory thoughts.

Edited 17 hours ago by Joshe

[Ponder]

50 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

The stages of awakening are as follows. First know peace. Then extend peace. Next see peace. Finally be peace. In that process, a someone who is not you might very well choose peace too. That's the best you can do and hope for. Words are obstacles and don't help a bit. All this is in the mind only. Don't leave home without it.

Well said ! 

[theleelajoker]

48 minutes ago, Joshe said:

@Natasha Tori Maru

I've had a taste of that state as well, but one thing I noticed was missing in that state was thinking. Thinking was replaced by perception of experience and action. My actions were prompted by the environment and pre-existing behavior patterns, no thinking involved.

But I don't see how this state could persist in a situation where one has to generate new strategies and actions over long timeframes where you're trying to oppose reality to create something new. 

Maybe it could persist in environments where you're already established and competent, but what happens in an environment where things actively resist you over long periods of time, where failure and friction persists? 

A few questions: 

• In such a state, is it possible to have "values" or a "vision"?
• If there's no thinker, where are the values and vision located? Surely inside a self structure? 

And a really interesting question: 

• Is it possible to think without activating the self structure?

What if thinking itself requires a self structure? I intuit that more often than not, it does.

You can see a tree without modeling yourself in relation to it, but the moment you think "what should I do about this tree" - you're back, because thought positions things in relation to each other, including you in relation to possibilities.

I'm not sure it's possible to impose our will onto reality without thinking and activating the self structure. 

My main idea is: the non-dual state is incompatible with strategic thinking. I'm not saying you can operate from both, just that you can't operate from both at the same time, and you have to choose one or the other based on goals and circumstances. 

From my experience, when thinking turns on, the self turns on. Self just comes with the territory. If I care about imposing my will onto reality, I need thought, and therefore, self. 

I want to shape reality, not to experience it with no friction. I accept friction as the cost of imposing my will. 

No self, no long-term goals. That's a high price to pay for equanimity. lol 

Just some exploratory thoughts.

@Joshe

I can - to a degree - relate to what Natasha describes. Can't answer for her, but in my impression, you're overthinking stuff.

For instance, I would question the assumption that shaping reality has to come with friction or they that it requires thought. 

I would also question the assumption that there's no long term strategic action without thinking. It's not that there's no long term thinking - it's just not "you" that does it.

It's a higher intelligence you're aligning with. Ask yourself: where do your long term goals come from? So which will are you actually executing?

My advice: Set your (long term) intention, don't think about the "how" and follow the path that is being created while situations, opportunities etc happen. 

Approach it like an experiment, like a research project. Will be fun

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by theleelajoker

[Ishanga]

17 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

@Joshe

I can - to a degree - relate to what Natasha describes. Can't answer for her, but in my impression, you're overthinking stuff.

For instance, I would question the assumption that shaping reality has to come with friction or they that it requires thought. 

I would also question the assumption that there's no long term strategic action without thinking. It's not that there's no long term thinking - it's just not "you" that does it.

It's a higher intelligence you're aligning with. Ask yourself: where do your long term goals come from? So which will are you actually executing?

My advice: Set your (long term) intention, don't think about the "how" and follow the path that is being created while situations, opportunities etc happen. 

Approach it like an experiment, like a research project. Will be fun

 

 

Yes.. Built within all of Us is Desire, this is not a Thinking Process.  All of Us mostly want to be More than What we are Right Now. but More What? Ultimately You want Total Freedom, no Body/Mind/Emotional restrictions, but if that happens then Your Gone!

For those that want to stick around, they just have to figure out one thing, where is their natural talent or skill in?  Via a high level of Consciousness, You have Clarity that most don't, you see what is ahead and can navigate most all obstacles, yes challenges arise but you don't stress over it, your intelligence is on high alert at all times, none of this has anything to do with thinking and needing to create intent, that is already there and Your super charged up, its just in what area of life You want to go in..for Me it was Martial Arts and Yoga/Wellbeing coaching! Pick Your area of interest and skill then just do it, no overthinking needed!

[Bjorn K Holmstrom]

Thank you both. @Natasha Tori Maru, your specific example of managing construction bids and Gantt charts was exactly the proof of concept my analytical mind needed.

I realized I was holding onto a belief that friction = fuel. That if I didn't feel the resistance/anxiety, the heavy stones wouldn't move.

But reading your description, I see that friction is actually just heat loss: wasted energy. What you describe sounds more like becoming a superconductor: zero resistance allows for massive amounts of energy/action to flow through without the system overheating (burnout).

And @Ishanga, the shift to do what is needed resonates deeply. It moves the motivation from neurotic self-preservation to systemic necessity. If the me isn't the bottleneck, the work just happens because the situation demands it.

I actually felt a physical release of tension reading these replies. Time to test this effortless construction in the real world.

[BlessedLion]

16 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Do we think others help us, or is it that we help ourselves? 

Maybe we can recieve a push that causes a stumble and realignment - but it is *us* that does the realigning.

In my experience 

Ture, I think it's a balance, teachers can help extract what's already within and inspire us and help us see the way with less distraction and traps, but we also have to do the heavy lifting and inner work

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Ishanga @theleelajoker @BlessedLion @Bjorn K Holmstrom 

Thank you - I appreciate all the alternate views and feedback. 

@theleelajoker you are on point 🙏

@Ishanga I can see the overlap with what Sadhguru teaches here, I stumbled upon my own weird interpretation and it appears to align across the board with a lot of other teachings 😊

@BlessedLion it's always both isn't it? Empty and full. Inside and outside. All of this work is running into constant paradox which really emphasises how there is some higher intelligence and the mind fails with its concepts.

@Bjorn K Holmstrom trust and surrender were key to getting to a point of flow in my work. It was a gradual process of integrating and cleaning up. Slowly, slowly I found myself in a state of effortlessness as I went deeper into trust and surrender - which was the total opposite of my previous modus operandi!

@Joshe I am not really non-dualist. Maybe that describes my state? I am not sure what words can assist you from me, as I perceive you to be locked within the constructs of the mind. I couldn't understand where I am from, on an intellectual level. Trust and surrender might be the biggest next steps for you in process. Thoughts happen and make my work happen, but without attachment to outcome, a lot of the mischievous attachment and emotional angst the ego introduces are absent. I have no control at all. I just act when I should - which goes back to @Ishanga's post. This is why it feels effortless like the body just does it - my energy is no longer wasted in judgements from the ego. I am not 'cant wait to get his done so I can go home' 'need to do this because I am anxious' 'dont like this task' 'cant wait for lunchbreak'. There is no resistance to experience. There is preference to some experience that makes me who I am. But no judgement and resistance because experience feels like it happens through me. I cannot judge myself.

I think you get to a stage where you understand you need to be in touch with the wisdom to know when to act, and when to wait. And it does feel as if there is a higher order of things that one taps into to participate in this process. You simply take action to arrange circumstances to increase the probability of a desired outcome.

When I look at a building successfully constructed and handed over - I do not really recognise I did that. It was just a set of happenings that lead to it. I just took action when I should.

Edited 9 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru