Capatilism is Objectively Superior to any other form of Governace.

[Daniel Balan]

1 minute ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

the more liberal china become the more "liberal" they are turning.
it's already happening, you under estimate framing like spiral dynamic.
 

China is blue. They have healthy parts of Blue and totally unhealthy parts of it. China is definitely a bit more evoled than Russia also Chinese culture is 100% more better than Russian one. Russia is at stage red, China solid blue

 

[Ellonek]

Nothing rides humanity like capitalism does. I am not into it but that is what works for the general populace.

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

Now Google "JP Morgan bailing out the united states of America". For your historical amnesia.

Elaborate on the point your trying to make - is it that an oligarch richer than God had so much concentrated wealth and power that he could single handedly decide whether the US economy survived? Is that free market capitalism?

The problem isn’t that JP Morgan once bailed out the state - its a problem if the state’s stability depends on JP Morgan type actors existing. That’s why the Federal Reserve was created after that crisis.

From Wiki:

“The panic was triggered by the failed attempt in October 1907 to corner the market on stock of the United Copper Company.” Ie Capital being naughty.

”Collapse of TC&I's stock price was averted by an emergency takeover by Morgan's U.S. Steel Corporation, a move approved by the trust-busting President Theodore Roosevelt. The following year, Senator Nelson W. Aldrich, a leading Republican, established and chaired a commission to investigate the crisis and propose future solutions, which led to the creation of the Federal Reserve System.”

So the excesses of capital accumulation created such instability, and then a God tier capitalist consolidates during that crisis and can then make certain demands for the price of rescue.

And Roosevelt just said “fuck it, exempt JP from anti-trust laws cos we need him more than our laws” and let him gobble up competitors in a consolidation play.

For your historical amnesia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907

Edited 4 hours ago by zazen

[Basman]

22 hours ago, Lyubov said:

You oversimplify and distort a lot of nuance to argue in favor of whatever we have now. Capitalist manifest destiny. I do not agree with your analysis of capitalism and what we have now is not naturally how people have always done business since the caveman era. 

There has been found remains of old cro magnon settlements in areas which couldn't naturally support human life. They surmize that the people in this settlements survived off trading sea shells. 

The first written languages where partial languages who's purpose was first and foremost to record ledgers. The oldest human texts are ledgers, bill of ownership, reciets, etc. IE. Business.

The concept of money is just a refinement of less universal currencies that have been used in the past, like grain or shells, which are itself a refinement of bartering goods directly with items, which has the issue of being a temperamental affair as both parties need to have something the other wants, whuch isn't always the case. Business is something we've been developing and refining since pre-history. 

Capitalism is just a highly refined form of trade, which comes natural to us as we are a cooperative species with the ability to provide different kinds of value to each other that allow us to more effectively survive. By trading value, strangers can cooperate bit like a family unit. It allows us to specialize. What is unique to capitalism is the degree to which you have to specialize in order to provide value. In the past, you had do more of everything in order to survive, like growing your own food and making your own entertainment. 

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, Kid A said:

Everything that ceases to exist is a failure?

In the context of government systems, yes.

[Daniel Balan]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I am talking about their economic system.

It's called nuance.

I still don't understand you. China's economic model is impossible without dictatorship. Without massive propaganda and brainwashing its citizens until they become literal machines that want on their own volition to work non stop for their economy and collective.

You said multiple times that you would kill yourself that if you were to live your life as a wage slave, so I still can't connect the dots in your reasoning. 

[Elliott]

49 minutes ago, zazen said:

Elaborate on the point your trying to make - is it that an oligarch richer than God had so much concentrated wealth and power that he could single handedly decide whether the US economy survived? Is that free market capitalism?

The problem isn’t that JP Morgan once bailed out the state - its a problem if the state’s stability depends on JP Morgan type actors existing. That’s why the Federal Reserve was created after that crisis.

From Wiki:

“The panic was triggered by the failed attempt in October 1907 to corner the market on stock of the United Copper Company.” Ie Capital being naughty.

”Collapse of TC&I's stock price was averted by an emergency takeover by Morgan's U.S. Steel Corporation, a move approved by the trust-busting President Theodore Roosevelt. The following year, Senator Nelson W. Aldrich, a leading Republican, established and chaired a commission to investigate the crisis and propose future solutions, which led to the creation of the Federal Reserve System.”

So the excesses of capital accumulation created such instability, and then a God tier capitalist consolidates during that crisis and can then make certain demands for the price of rescue.

And Roosevelt just said “fuck it, exempt JP from anti-trust laws cos we need him more than our laws” and let him gobble up competitors in a consolidation play.

For your historical amnesia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907

1895

 

Not bailing out a company, bailing out the united States of America

[AerisVahnEphelia]

39 minutes ago, Basman said:

There has been found remains of old cro magnon settlements in areas which couldn't naturally support human life. They surmize that the people in this settlements survived off trading sea shells. 

The first written languages where partial languages who's purpose was first and foremost to record ledgers. The oldest human texts are ledgers, bill of ownership, reciets, etc. IE. Business.

The concept of money is just a refinement of less universal currencies that have been used in the past, like grain or shells, which are itself a refinement of bartering goods directly with items, which has the issue of being a temperamental affair as both parties need to have something the other wants, whuch isn't always the case. Business is something we've been developing and refining since pre-history. 

Capitalism is just a highly refined form of trade, which comes natural to us as we are a cooperative species with the ability to provide different kinds of value to each other that allow us to more effectively survive. By trading value, strangers can cooperate bit like a family unit. It allows us to specialize. What is unique to capitalism is the degree to which you have to specialize in order to provide value. In the past, you had do more of everything in order to survive, like growing your own food and making your own entertainment. 

raping woman was too, it's even a better proof that we shall stop acting like fucking cro magnon if this is true.
 

[Ishanga]

Resource Based Economy is the best, but for this too work the majority of Humanity has to have a somewhat higher level of Consciousness that it is currently at... Right now nothing really works, Capitalism is just a hidden form of slavery, at least now it is, maybe 20 yrs ago and beyond it was working well, but not now, now we mostly are all slaves to the dollar, to the employer or consumer of your product to continue on with what You are doing, while the rich get richer and more powerful and the poor get poorer and less powerful and basic hidden from society where no one cares!

Edited 3 hours ago by Ishanga

[Husseinisdoingfine]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

WTF are you talking about?

We are talking about a socialism success story and proof that it works.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Husseinisdoingfine

[zazen]

35 minutes ago, Elliott said:

1895

 

Not bailing out a company, bailing out the united States of America

What’s your point, elaborate?

[Elliott]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

What’s your point, elaborate?

 

You said this

 

2 hours ago, zazen said:

.

“Capitalism” isn’t the least bad system - it was and is the least bad system for a specific civilization (Westwern) escaping a specific problem (Medieval fuedalism). It’s a mistake to assume this as universal and have a binary view of governing systems that is blind to history.

 

n 2008 capitalism privatized the gains and socialized the losses. When the system based upon the primacy of capital collpased it wasn’t the “free market” that saved the day but state power (banker bailouts) and ironically a so called communist state (China) that disciplines the excesses of capital instead of elevating it into God tier status - that stabilized the global financial system by buying US debt.

 

You were saying it's a parasitic relationship, one-way. It's symbiotic.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

I still don't understand you. China's economic model is impossible without dictatorship. Without massive propaganda and brainwashing its citizens until they become literal machines that want on their own volition to work non stop for their economy and collective.

You said multiple times that you would kill yourself that if you were to live your life as a wage slave, so I still can't connect the dots in your reasoning. 

I've shared several videos about China on my blog. Life there is not as bad as you imagine. You'd need to watch those videos to understand what I'm pointing to.

https://www.actualized.org/insights/rethinking-china

Their system can liberalize as it grows more successful and meets everyone's material needs.

Edited 1 hour ago by Leo Gura

[Basman]

2 hours ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

raping woman was too, it's even a better proof that we shall stop acting like fucking cro magnon if this is true.

There's nothing inherently immoral about trade. 

Nobody has an alternative to trade. Collectivism is just trade with differenent rules, which is exactly what I'm talking about.

Edited 1 hour ago by Basman

[Basman]

There has essentially been two kinds of value exchange throughout human history, trade and pillaging. The latter has largely completely fallen out in favor of trade due to its superior long-term value and being antithetical to one another (cooperative vs coercive).

Trade favors complex societies whereas pillaging undermines the trust and stability needed for expansive trade. 

Society flourished with modern capitalism in terms of living standards. We developed the complexity to support surplus trade coupled with technological advancements via science and an underlying belief in progress (which was a relatively recent development). Capitalism requires immense societal evolution to work and has enabled cooperation on a global scale. It's a huge reason for why we live in one of the most peaceful eras in human history.

Capitalism has its excesses which needs to be worked on in earnest, but people who see capitalism as a dirty word tend to be out of touch with survival and spoiled, ironically via capitalism. They can only see the bad and completely take for granted all its done for them.

The solution to the excesses of capitalism is to keep refining how we do trade, like we've already done for ages. Nobody really cares that there exist billionaires. They just get mad when there exist billionaires and they can't afford groceries.