Noam Chomsky was friends with Jeffrey Epstein

[Hojo]

@Leo GuraThats what I originally put down but the dictionary told me otherwise. We can use that but we are just making up the definitions. I agree with it, but its not a fact of English language. I thought it meant fucking kids. Like young teens or lower. You literally have no control wether you are a pedophile. Definitionally all men just are and probably all women. Either we need to change the definitions because they seem wonky or accept the fact that we are.

Like I dont understand why the age of majority has anything to do with the definition of Children. But its in there.

Edited 12 hours ago by Hojo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

There's also hebephilia if you want to complicate this further. Also ephebophilia.

Edited 12 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Hojo]

@Natasha Tori MaruSeems like these people were hebephilia. They want to have sex with them right when their periods start. Which is not what I thought a pedophile was to begin with. I thought it was before that. I dont think a teenager should be in the same definition as a child, but it is.

Edited 12 hours ago by Hojo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

4 minutes ago, Hojo said:

@Natasha Tori MaruSeems like these people were hebephilia. They want to have sex with them right when their periods start. Which is not what I thought a pedophile was to begin with. I thought it was before that. I dont think a teenager should be in the same definition as a child, but it is.

Yeah, they changed the subgroups to be more defined for anyone attracted to underage girls/boys.

I had no idea until I worked with a journalist who was researching a local sex offender/murder unsolved case in Melbourne.

He interviewed an expert to be able to psychologically profile individuals who showed predispositions to hebephilia. 

[Clarence]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a very nebulous term.

For the purposes of this discussion a child is someone before puberty. The legal age is not the right measure. Everyone is attracted to a puberty body naturally because it is an adult body and it is designed to reproduce regardless of what laws say.

However, puberty typically begins around ages 10–12 in girls, and noticeable changes often become apparent around this time.

So this definition is still quite nebulous, unless we consider a child to be up to about 9 years old (when puberty starts) and a preteen or teenager to be above that.

For example, I would not consider a 13-14 years old a child. They would look much more like a teenager than a child. Yet it is still not appropriate for an adult to have sex with them.

-

I think I initially misunderstood your intent. So the idea is simply that attraction and reproduction is natural once puberty has started, even if the girl is just ten years old?

Edited 10 hours ago by Clarence

[Wilhelm44]

Yeah, i dont think the Lolita type theme was considered as pedo in the past. 

[Hojo]

@ClarenceYes so then they are not pedophiles.

[Miguel1]

I for one don’t think I’m attracted to an 18 year old’s body. Especially as their mind comes with their body. They are kids, and their bodies reflect that.

Perhaps it is more so their mind that I am repulsed by, rather than their body.

Edited 9 hours ago by Miguel1

[Clarence]

@Hojo In a sense. The problem is that it’s a gray area between about ages 10 and 15. Some people might consider a girl at that age to look adult enough, while others could still see too many child-like traits in her.

[Basman]

34 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

I for one don’t think I’m attracted to an 18 year old’s body. Especially as their mind comes with their body. They are kids, and their bodies reflect that.

Perhaps it is more so their mind that I am repulsed by, rather than their body.

You're very particular. Physically your going to be attracted to any kind of fertillity. You don't jerk off to people's minds.

It's also cultural to consider 18 as a kind of child in the broad sense. In the the past you'de be considered an adult much sooner. As survival requires more and more specialization, our perception of what is considered adult has become older I believe. In the past you could substantially and meaningfully contribute to survival at a younger age and where then considered adult, like in a hunter-gatherer society or a medieval farm.

Edited 9 hours ago by Basman

[Miguel1]

@Basman Yes, at least culturally 18 y olds are kids to me. For example, an 18 year olds and a 17 year olds bodies are virtually the same, yet the other is illegal and the other is legal.

How would you feel like having sex with an 17 year old? Probably very wrong.

Anyway, all this being said, maybe I’m going to a club for youngsters to pick up some 18 y olds this weekend, just to see how I feel about having sex with them nowadays, to have an honest assesment.

Probably just seeing their faces, and I want out of the club. Especially 18 y old males look extra kid like.

Edited 8 hours ago by Miguel1

[Thought Art]

@Hojo An 18 year old is a young adult bro. 18 year olds can legally make porn too. Don’t be misapplying label of child to an 18 year old. 

[zazen]

Relevant for your guys discussion:

If two high schoolers have consensual sex - one of them is a day over the age of 18 after their birthday, the other is just a day away from turning 18 themselves - is it immoral? It’s still illegal according to law - standardization creates such edge cases.

The law is intended obviously to protect against much wider age gaps that create power asymmetries where exploitation happens. Yet, there can still be two legal adults with a wide power asymmetry (that oddly created the attraction in the first place). A 20 year old “legal adult” and a 40 year old “legal adult” ie Leo Di Caprio dating young women. Both are legal adults consenting - but the asymmetry is massive in who has the years of experience, status and power that comes with all that.

It comes down to maturity - physical, emotional and psychological. Not just an arbitrary (yet protective) line drawn in the sand along just the simplest to measure metric ie age. When someone’s biologically mature -  they should be mentally and emotionally mature for the responsibilities  that come along with the act and its consequences.

Legality doesn’t equal moral symmetry.  And standardization draws a blunt line to protect society, but it flattens nuance at the same time.

Where the guy in the above video is wrong though is that he says Aisha married that young because she was intellectually and emotionally mature for her age ie the exception - but that wasn't the case at the time of marriage. Who she married most likely aided in her becoming exceptional later. She became a prodigy because of the environment and role she grew into.

Still - this wasn't a case of pedophilia either, because the Prophet didn't have a psychological fixation or pattern of predation upon the young and “pure”. Most of his wifeys were older, divorced or widowed. Aisha was the exception as daughter of one of his closest companions who entrusted him. It was a norm of the time the Prophet was acting within in pre-modern society. 

Power asymmetry is the thing modern ethics condemns - yet isn’t it power asymmetry that fuels the attraction in the first place? Models date Leo because of it - not despite it.  The attraction of human nature is drawn to inequality - but our liberalised worldview of equality psychologically resists that fact. This is why Leo’s case makes many uncomfortable and is debated.

To get around all this the loophole of consent is used to sanitize the inequality, not eliminate it. But then - consent requires maturity (capacity) as a pre-requisite. And maturity is difficult to quantify - so society defaults to “if they consent it’s fine - and we assume the capacity for consent is there once they cross the age of 16, 18 etc”.

The line (standard) is needed for society to run at scale smoothly - but that line in turn influences society to think linearly and without nuance.

Edited 5 hours ago by zazen

[Basman]

2 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

How would you feel like having sex with an 17 year old? Probably very wrong.

I'd be more worried about social repurcussions than anything. In of itself I don't thinks its a big deal. But I'm extraordinarilly open minded compared to most.

2 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Especially 18 y old males look extra kid like.

I've met a guy who was so hairy and muscular that you wouldn't think he was 23. But his energy tells me that he genuinely still get excited over something like Fortnite. As you got older, your tastes refine and your driven by more complex motivations. You settle more into the mundanity of reality.

You also look up less to people. Like, if I yelled at this guy he would probably be genuinely hurt despite being bigger than me, whereas someone like you would probably just be confused. You wouldn't internalize how other people treat you. 

[Miguel1]

Man, I think having sex with 18 y olds as a 30 y old man is just wrong.

These are innocent and inexperienced little kids. Let them grow up and learn the ways with their age group.

Having sex with a 18 year old just for the sake of sex must be the worst sex ever anyway. They have no skills whatsoever. And the power imbalance is totally dysfunctional.

If you want to go for youngsters, 22-24 is minimum.

But okay, I get it. We are talking about purely body, no mind here. A 18 year old body with the face and mind of 22 year old, and I’ll feel better about it.

Clearly my mind is not allowing me to feel attraction towards the 18 year olds here.

[Thought Art]

@Miguel1 It’s not ideal, in my view for an 18 year old to have sex with a 30 year old. But calling them a child is untrue. Attraction isn’t the same as actively pursuing and fucking an 18 year old. But, it’s not being a pedophile if someone is attracted. It would be normal biological consequences of puberty. 
 

For me, as a 30 year old I’m attracted to people more mature like 25-35ish. Last girl I was with as like 23 or something. 
 

You can recognize an attraction without it being a preference, or something you act on. As humans we are complicated in our relating. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Thought Art

[Miguel1]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

But calling them a child is untrue.

Their body no, but their mind yes. 18 y olds are completely clueless about the world.

[Thought Art]

@Miguel1 Yeah, so are 25 year olds and plenty of 30 year olds.

Edited 5 hours ago by Thought Art

[Miguel1]

@Thought Art You can’t compare a 18 y old and a 25 y old lol. If you think they are same or similar, then you live in delusion.

7 years of adulthood is a tremenduous change at that age.

[Thought Art]

@Miguel1 Ideally. Anyway, you can contemplate it for yourself without insulting me. Take care

You think I’m like, 18 or something? 😂

I can compare and contrast, and think and see whatever similarities or differences there are of an 18 year old and 25 year old that I want. I can also make claims that many people are also immature even by 30 and wouldn’t make a great partner. 

Edited 4 hours ago by Thought Art