What implication does spiral dynamics have for immigration policy?

[Starlight321]

@Leo Gura But Leo, there are real issues with sloppily regulated immigration. The country where I live has more than one million people from syria and about half a million afghani refugees. Many are nice people and just want to work and prosper.

However not all but a big minority of them bring  medievil value systems with them and treat their women and children in inapropriate ways for our time like not allowing them contact with males or preventing contact with people from outside their ethnicity. Many of them are stage purple red and blue and are actively trying to resist integration and put pressure on those who want to.

I can tell you from personal experience that there are real problems. When I was a teenager most of my friends were muslim or had a migration background. I also have a migration background from my fathers side. I also had a religious muslim stepfather from Ghana and was brought up multiculturally. We were living in a big city with 2 million in the metropolitian area and my stepfather had really trouble to find a mosque where they didn't preach to avoid contact with non muslims and how wicked the western society is and hence should be avoided. I also had some african relatives living near by and they were treating the only girl  they had besides a bunch of boys really poorly as cleaner and babysitter with little freedom.

I also had a friend from marroco and he was married off when he was 18 and some other guys I was friends with during childhood got their wifes through arranged marriages from the countries their parents were from which makes integration harder. Some of them weren't my best friends but guys you hang up with because some of  them were neighbors and friends of neighbors. We had also people from the salafia movement in the neighborhood trying to indoctrinate some of the poorer children and I have to tell you even though this movement creates other problems, that for a few of them it was a good developement because it was relatively a step up from stage red andd their stage red environment and they stopped being violent. 

When I was 19 I quit contact with most of them completely.

The majority of immigrants does not do the things I mentioned above but it depend however I think it is more likely that if it happens they tolerate it if it's done by their relatives and if it's it's common not necessarily from the culture their from but from their specific socioeconomic niche where they are from the other country and then they don't see any problem.

On the other hand Immigrants from these countries with higher education  who come here to study usually don't have these problems or they are less common. This is also the case with better educated people here so it's also important to give them possibilities to climb up the social ladder.

However the slow fall of living standard and economic decline as well as the growing gap between rich and poor will make all those problems worse due to the lack of possibilities and ressources. It is also often the case that here in Germany stage blue/orange people from areas with less contact tipically overreact and stereotype all muslims or people  behave this way even though isn't the case and it depends on the specific background. I also want to add that just happens to backfire if you try to get cheap slave workers from the most poor developed areas and spent decades sagregrate them from the rest of the population because you expect them to leave so miss to create a appropriate integration system.

Edited Sunday at 11:50 PM by Starlight321

[Infinity16]

18 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

In my eyes, stage blue's approach is very narrow-minded, they don't hate migrants for being violent, they hate them for diluting their culture. Stage blue is also viciously violent and the people from their in-group commit murder and rape among their own people, so blue is more concerned about the loss of traditions and culture rather than violence.

That's certainly the main reason why the alt right hates immigration. All the stuff about how migrants are criminals, taking people's jobs, and becoming a liability to the welfare state are just talking points that they use to sell to everyone else. The reactionaries fear not that immigrants won't integrate but that they will. They fear that mass migration will dilute their culture. This would obviously not be persuasive to those in stage orange which does not care about culture in the slightest. Perhaps tellingly, a poll of each state in Germany shows that those most likely to think that Germany was welcoming in too many migrants tended to reside where there were very few of them.

[Daniel Balan]

2 hours ago, Infinity16 said:

That's certainly the main reason why the alt right hates immigration. All the stuff about how migrants are criminals, taking people's jobs, and becoming a liability to the welfare state are just talking points that they use to sell to everyone else. The reactionaries fear not that immigrants won't integrate but that they will. They fear that mass migration will dilute their culture. This would obviously not be persuasive to those in stage orange which does not care about culture in the slightest. Perhaps tellingly, a poll of each state in Germany shows that those most likely to think that Germany was welcoming in too many migrants tended to reside where there were very few of them.

I agree 100% with you! But why do you say that stage orange doesn't care about culture and traditions in the slightest? 

I don't care about culture or traditions or anything related to that, in fact I abhor culture and traditions of any kind, I view myself as citizen of the earth, I couldn't give a damn about the social construct that a country represents. I don't believe I'm yet at stage orange, I view myself at a red'ish stage blue yet. 

[Davino]

10 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Do you have endogamy? Thats the boss level haha

No, my girlfriend is latina. Pick your poison, right?

[Infinity16]

7 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

I agree 100% with you! But why do you say that stage orange doesn't care about culture and traditions in the slightest? 

I don't care about culture or traditions or anything related to that, in fact I abhor culture and traditions of any kind, I view myself as citizen of the earth, I couldn't give a damn about the social construct that a country represents. I don't believe I'm yet at stage orange, I view myself at a red'ish stage blue yet. 

Culture and traditions start at stage purple. Orange is an inversion of purple, meaning that it is the opposite in every conceivable way. You might have some powerful id in stage red, yet might have an ego in a much higher stage.

[nerdspeak]

The issue in Western Europe is that the societies are (1) xenophobic AND (2) locked in permanent wage deflation because of EU mismanagement. Politicians can’t deal with (2) so they direct all anger at (1). 

This hostile environment reinforces big barriers for migrants to find jobs or housing and for their kids to even make local friends and learn the language properly. They and their children get locked in permanent marginal positions or parallel societies.

The crime rates are (predictably) higher as that tracks social exclusion.  

I’m a scientist from the USA with a permanent research job in a Benelux country. I still get frequent micro-aggressions like, “When are you going back to the US?”. I’m a permanent resident and people treat me like a tourist.

For people from Arab countries or even Eastern Europe it’s way worse. That includes professionals who aren’t in “blue” or “red” lol, these categories can be really stupid in how they are applied.

My colleague is a scientist with a PhD from Oxford. He is from Lebanon and couldn’t find a landlord willing to rent to him in the city center despite a permanent job and work visa; he had to live in the immigrant neighborhood and commute 30 minutes. He does not have lower “development” than the local population. Aside from his credentials, he comes from a long line of scientists and writers in the Levant and spent his youth reading in five languages and attending prestigious Francophone boarding schools. 

Neither of us have made any real local friends despite speaking the language and only socialize with other international university staff. Even the local faculty, while professionally polite and courteous, are socially very distant. 

Edited Monday at 02:57 PM by nerdspeak

[Basman]

3 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

I agree 100% with you! But why do you say that stage orange doesn't care about culture and traditions in the slightest? 

Immigration = cheap labor, more customers and is good for real estate investments.

Stage Orange loves immigration and doesn't care about the deleterious effects it can have on a population long-term. It is telling when immigrants themselves think there are too many immigrants. It is not necesarilly conscious, but rather the effect of what is best for business as they help maintain perpetual growth. 

5 hours ago, Infinity16 said:

All the stuff about how migrants are criminals, taking people's jobs, and becoming a liability to the welfare state are just talking points that they use to sell to everyone else. 

It is a serious issue if the populace feel that their borders are too loose. It leads to distrust of institutions, which is why it is problematic to dismiss and exaggerate conservative concerns. It is as toxic of the informational space as xenophobic fear mongering. It leads to a post-truth environment where the truth becomes secondary to ideological saturation.

You need to take responsibility for conservatives as they are part of the system. Ignoring conservatives would be like ignoring that the exhaust of your car rattles because it made a problematic tweet. 

6 hours ago, Infinity16 said:

Perhaps tellingly, a poll of each state in Germany shows that those most likely to think that Germany was welcoming in too many migrants tended to reside where there were very few of them.

Rich enough to care, but too rich too feel any of the effects.

[Twentyfirst]

12 hours ago, Infinity16 said:

That's certainly the main reason why the alt right hates immigration. All the stuff about how migrants are criminals, taking people's jobs, and becoming a liability to the welfare state are just talking points that they use to sell to everyone else. The reactionaries fear not that immigrants won't integrate but that they will. They fear that mass migration will dilute their culture. This would obviously not be persuasive to those in stage orange which does not care about culture in the slightest. Perhaps tellingly, a poll of each state in Germany shows that those most likely to think that Germany was welcoming in too many migrants tended to reside where there were very few of them.

But how many immigrants is too many? What percentage? Because Japan is tea but if you add too much orange juice it becomes a weird mix that doesn't taste good and at some point you can't find the taste of tea anymore and even the orange juice will taste funky 

I think a lot of people who want all sorts of immigrants flooding are people who have never traveled because the more you travel the more you realize the importance and beauty of protecting distinct areas with distinct people. It's better to have 200 countries that are strict but have differences instead of just 1 world country that is mixed but the same

With modern transportation and online communication/study/work is it really necessary to immigrate somewhere? You can just fly there for a weekend and then go back to where you are from. You can wear VR and control a robot in another country to do your job. We aren't hunter and gatherers where it made sense to move around. It really doesn't make sense anymore to want to start a new life in a new country and impose yourself on the people there and if it does make sense it would be for a very small percentage of people. Even to move for money doesn't make sense anymore because money has never been less important than it is now. If you are filthy rich or filthy poor you will still have the same iPhone and spend most of your day behind the screen so who needs money anymore

 

[Kid A]

2 hours ago, nerdspeak said:

Neither of us have made any real local friends despite speaking the language and only socialize with other international university staff. Even the local faculty, while professionally polite and courteous, are socially very distant. 

If it's any comfort, you should at least know that it's not just you migrants who struggle to make friends here in Western Europe. 

[nerdspeak]

3 minutes ago, Kid A said:

If it's any comfort, you should at least know that it's not just you migrants who struggle to make friends here in Western Europe. 

Fair enough. But in the US, permanent university staff who speak English and have permanent residency would not be categorized as “migrants.” Here, arguably our children will still be seen as migrants. It’s bizarre.

[Alex4]

Immigration should stop being seen as coal to throw into the fire to keep inefficient industries running. They’re allowed to enter without control or planning because it benefits employers who want to cheapen labor.
 

[Basman]

Mexicans are known for kissing the ground repeatedly and praising the heavens in Spanish upon crossing the border into the US. Americans have nothing to fear.

[Basman]

Yelling "la migra" at Home Depot and if the latinos run they are illegals. If they stand still they are well trained illegals.

[Infinity16]

On 10/26/2025 at 8:36 AM, Apparition of Jack said:

I sometimes wonder if the age of the nation-state is coming to and end, and that we’re entering some sort of new, legalistic-pluralistic age that hasnt yet fully formed.

Remember, the nation-state, where one peoples lives in one self-governing country, is a relatively recent phenomenon, only really coming about during the French Revolution and later at the end of WWI. Before then, most large countries had multiple peoples all living side by side, often of different religions / ethnicities entirely.

Look at say, the Ottoman Empire. It was a state that, before the rise of things like human rights and individual equality, had Orthodox Greeks, Sunni Turks, Sephardi Jews, Druze Arabs etc all living side-by-side in (relative) cooperation and peace. Obviously I don’t want to say that it was some sort of multicultural utopia; throughout its long history there were periods of ethnic oppression, discrimination and violence, but on the whole most of its subject people accepted that their neighbours might speak a different language or follow a different religion, yet they were all part of the same broader “cultural sphere / world” etc.

I honestly think it’s time we rethink nationality, identity, religion etc in a way that accepts that very real cultural differences exist (I highly doubt a progressive lesbian lawyer from NYC is going to see eye-to-eye with a traditionalist Moroccan immigrant), whilst also not undermining the basic human rights and rule of law our modern civilisation is built off. 

What would this look like? I don’t know. I think being openly honest about our differences and disagreements is a good start (and this would require stage Green to accept that you can’t just push hundreds of different cultures into the same room and expect everyone to get along), but also under the intention that we can find common ground and that it is possible for us to have, say, a white Protestant, an Indian Hindu  and a Jewish secularist all live side-by-side in the same city / country / society without us constantly wanting to deport the other and bickering like children, lol.

I think that's a very fascinating topic. A large essay could be written on how spiral dynamics applies to types of government and modes of government.

A type of government is based on how power is distributed. Dictatorships and warlord states are stage red. Monarchies are stage blue. Democracy is stage orange/green.

A mode of government is based on the fundamental structure.

Empires as you described them are stage red. The purpose of an empire is to enable the dominant group to benefit from subjugating others.

The nation-state is a stage blue mode of government. In the age of democracy, empires are difficult to justify, yet technology favors scale. Nation-states feel a stronger drive towards assimilation than empires do because nation-states are supposed to represent every citizen.

This then got me thinking about what a stage orange mode of government would look like. Perhaps in a hyperglobalized world in which 3D printing has drastically reduced the scale of violence, city states will be run like corporations and people who work online will vote with their feet.

9 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

But how many immigrants is too many? What percentage? Because Japan is tea but if you add too much orange juice it becomes a weird mix that doesn't taste good and at some point you can't find the taste of tea anymore and even the orange juice will taste funky 

I think a lot of people who want all sorts of immigrants flooding are people who have never traveled because the more you travel the more you realize the importance and beauty of protecting distinct areas with distinct people. It's better to have 200 countries that are strict but have differences instead of just 1 world country that is mixed but the same

With modern transportation and online communication/study/work is it really necessary to immigrate somewhere? You can just fly there for a weekend and then go back to where you are from. You can wear VR and control a robot in another country to do your job. We aren't hunter and gatherers where it made sense to move around. It really doesn't make sense anymore to want to start a new life in a new country and impose yourself on the people there and if it does make sense it would be for a very small percentage of people. Even to move for money doesn't make sense anymore because money has never been less important than it is now. If you are filthy rich or filthy poor you will still have the same iPhone and spend most of your day behind the screen so who needs money anymore

 

Even if you have an iphone, it doesn't mean that you live in a country with good infrastructure, healthcare, economic opportunity, or human rights.

Also, your analogy about tea and orange juice falls apart when you go to a place that is very diverse like New York City. There, you get to witness various different cultures. You can pretty much try every single culinary dish on planet earth.

[Twentyfirst]

On 10/28/2025 at 5:37 AM, Infinity16 said:

 

Even if you have an iphone, it doesn't mean that you live in a country with good infrastructure, healthcare, economic opportunity, or human rights.

This is just babble. If you have an iPhone/access to an airport you are pretty much set. There are homeless people in America the richest country in the world even though they have good "opportunity". Hell you can even buy robots now even if your country is shit. Plus age of information is the great equalizer 

Life is what you make it. Victimhood only hurts the person wielding it

On 10/28/2025 at 5:37 AM, Infinity16 said:

Also, your analogy about tea and orange juice falls apart when you go to a place that is very diverse like New York City. There, you get to witness various different cultures. You can pretty much try every single culinary dish on planet earth.

Yeah but NYC is just one singular city in America. It has a small amount of the total population and takes a small amount of the total land. Try mixing the entirety of America and scrambling all the cultures. Plus America is special that it's an alleged "melting pot" that still has a distinct "culture" like the blue jeans and apple pie style. Take away that distinct culture and you'll have protests of "make America great like It used to"

[Breakingthewall]

On 27/10/2025 at 3:45 PM, nerdspeak said:

The issue in Western Europe is that the societies are (1) xenophobic AND (2) locked in permanent wage deflation because of EU mismanagement. Politicians can’t deal with (2) so they direct all anger at (1). 

In Europe there are millions of Chinese people, and no one feels anger towards them, even though they are fierce competition in many businesses. there are also millions of Latin Americans, and they are not hated; they are seen as people who have come to work, even though in some cases they are involved in crimes, same than east Europeans, philipinos, and many others who are accepted without problem 

People reject immigrants from Islamic countries because they fear them and consider them dangerous. People feel that Muslims hate the European way of life; they've come for the money, but they feel disgust and contempt, not to say hatred, for the societies that welcome them. So, naturally, they don't generate sympathy.

Edited yesterday at 02:38 PM by Breakingthewall

[Daniel Balan]

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

In Europe there are millions of Chinese people, and no one feels anger towards them, even though they are fierce competition in many businesses. there are also millions of Latin Americans, and they are not hated; they are seen as people who have come to work, even though in some cases they are involved in crimes, same than east Europeans, philipinos, and many others who are accepted without problem 

People reject immigrants from Islamic countries because they fear them and consider them dangerous. People feel that Muslims hate the European way of life; they've come for the money, but they feel disgust and contempt, not to say hatred, for the societies that welcome them. So, naturally, they don't generate sympathy.

Amen to that.

[nerdspeak]

On 10/29/2025 at 3:37 PM, Breakingthewall said:

People reject immigrants from Islamic countries because they fear them and consider them dangerous. People feel that Muslims hate the European way of life; they've come for the money, but they feel disgust and contempt, not to say hatred, for the societies that welcome them. So, naturally, they don't generate sympathy.

Islamophobia in the 21st century is structurally very similar to antisemitism in the mid twentieth century. Who are these Muslim immigrants who “feel disgust and contempt” for European society? I really think it’s improper and dangerous to generalize like this. 

(1) Radicalized Muslims are a tiny minority of the immigrants; (2) many of them are refugees created by the War on Terror.

If Europe didn’t want them pursuing their asylum rights under international law, it shouldn’t have allowed the US to turn the Middle East into a war zone to pursue control of the global oil market…

[Breakingthewall]

40 minutes ago, nerdspeak said:

Europe didn’t want them pursuing their asylum rights under international law, it shouldn’t have allowed the US to turn the Middle East into a war zone to pursue control of the global oil market…

Maybe they should have told to US: hey, we don't allow that things that you do! 

Regardless of the reasons, Europeans in the Netherlands, Germany, England, or France perceive the Islamization of their countries as a serious threat. This will lead to the rise of far-right parties, because people genuinely do not want Islam to advance in Europe. Islam is seen as an ideology of oppression to women and exclusion to the different. Hate and violence. Then nobody likes it . 

It seems many people also don't think it's a good idea to go bankrupt over the war in Ukraine, no matter how much politicians try to sell the idea that after Ukraine Putin will try to conquer England. It seems some people don't buy that story and think investing billions in nuclear submarines is a joke. Just to allow the American bosses make business at the cost of ruining the Germans. It seems that some Germans don't consider that a viable path, even they clearly know that Germany in not a sovereign county but a puppet 

Edited 2 hours ago by Breakingthewall