Direct Consciousness & Psychedelic Drugs

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, bazera said:

@Leo Gura

According to you, where do you think he is wrong exactly? I know two points that you've mentioned so far, those were Love and psychedelics.

Any others? 

Those two for sure. He is also wrong about yoga. He thinks that Kriya yoga cannot produce enlightenment/Awakening. He also believes meditation cannot produce enlightenment.

He's also wrong about the role genetics play in consciousness. Consciousness is genetic.

Edited Wednesday at 08:52 PM by Leo Gura

[bazera]

@Leo Gura I don't have as much of an experience with consciousness as you do, but I don't understand how a guy like him can miss such things.

So if he hasn't done enough yoga, how can he say that it won't work. Even if he did, and it didn't work for him, how can he be so sure that it won't work for other people?

Same for psychedelics. 

So, according to him, this "direct consciousness" is only achieved through contemplation, the way he teaches it. As much as I like his work (books, podcasts, etc), it seems a bit off. But I still think it will be very valuable to attend his workshops as a beginner in this work, but also in the back of my mind I will keep those points you mentioned.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, bazera said:

but I don't understand how a guy like him can miss such things

Ralston's greatest weakness is that he has isolated himself from everyone else. He lives in his own world and does not study or take ideas from others. His own mind/life/consciousness is very powerful but it then becomes its own island, so anything that exists outside that island is like it doesn't even exist. He does not listen to anyone but himself and that leads to blindness. He is too dismissive of the spiritual experiences of others, acting like they have nothing to contribute. He is not willing to learn from others.

[- Adam -]

Look lol, uploaded today:

NotebookLM summary:

Peter Ralston reflects on his experiences with various substances. Ralston recalls the distinction made in the late 1960s and early 1970s between recreational drugs and those supposedly capable of increasing consciousness, such as LSD and psilocybin. The speaker, who experienced the era's counter-culture first-hand, including the high doses of LSD prevalent at the time, firmly asserts that these drugs did not raise his consciousness. He argues that drugs only alter the brain's chemistry and change states or reactions, which is a chemical process rather than a true, direct encounter with reality. Ralston concludes that any insights gained while under the influence of substances like "toad juice" (DMT) are circumstantially derived and ultimately disappear once the drug wears off, leaving the user unchanged.

Edited Wednesday at 09:19 PM by - Adam -

[bazera]

Even the way he phrases 5-meo as the "toad juice" feels kinda off.

I'm sure all his followers will refer to that substance as the toad juice and dismiss it as well.

[cetus]

With all the "experimentation" with psychedelics that went on in the 60's and 70's, you have to ask yourself-

Where are all the enlightened hippies?" 

[Terell Kirby]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Ralston's greatest weakness is that he has isolated himself from everyone else.

Hmm idk Leo-some would argue it’s essential to be isolated to create a powerful mind.. not that I have any interest in defending Ralston, just playing devils advocate 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

He does not listen to anyone but himself and that leads to blindness.

More like his mind is closed on certain theories of Consciousness..one being that there exists a real distinction between lower and higher states-arguing mainly that it’s a conceptual distinction created in the human mind through language and abstraction.

I’d imagine his stance would change after exploring radical state changes which you can tell he has limited experience doing.

Ralston, for what it’s worth, has grasped some very important insights into the nature of reality , self and Being (which is important for Consciousness work). Would more DMT broaden his perspective? Absolutely-but doesn’t negate what he teaches at a base level.

Edited Wednesday at 10:23 PM by Terell Kirby

[Daniel Balan]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Ralston's greatest weakness is that he has isolated himself from everyone else. He lives in his own world and does not study or take ideas from others. His own mind/life/consciousness is very powerful but it then becomes its own island, so anything that exists outside that island is like it doesn't even exist. He does not listen to anyone but himself and that leads to blindness. He is too dismissive of the spiritual experiences of others, acting like they have nothing to contribute. He is not willing to learn from others.

Isn't this a core tenet of your work? Isn't this the main idea from your video The social matrix? Or from the video How socialization makes you stupid? 

I thought that you are the biggest champion of independent thinking. 

This is what I'm also engaged in. Because I see that others are so biased, so deluded, so self deceived, I have decided that the worldview that I have will be forged only with my own independent thinking and dirrect experience. I have decided that form now on I will no longer buy into any group think and every belief or opinion that I have must be arrived at only from independent thinking, deep contemplation, keen attention to self bias and thorough questioning of my opinions, beliefs and worldview.

But now you look down on Ralston for doing the very thing that you have championed for so many years. Could you explain why? 

After all is better to isolate yourself and arrive at the worldview you have on your own volition, on your own independent thinking rather than being indoctrinated into some herd mentality ideology. I don't get why you criticise Ralston from this angle.

Edited Wednesday at 10:31 PM by Daniel Balan

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, cetus said:

Where are all the enlightened hippies?" 

Peter Ralston

Lolz

[cetus]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Peter Ralston

Lolz

What would Timothy Leary be doing today? Would he be teaching enlightenment to the masses or just another 60's has been?  Seems history answered that one. So where did the hippies go wrong? What was the downfall of that psychedelic era?

Edited Wednesday at 10:52 PM by cetus

[cetus]

1 hour ago, - Adam - said:

Ralston concludes that any insights gained while under the influence of substances like "toad juice" (DMT) are circumstantially derived and ultimately disappear once the drug wears off, leaving the user unchanged.

I wouldn't have said "unchanged" because psychedelics did prove to the user that there were other levels of consciousness beyond the normal waking, dreaming, and deep sleep to be accessed. Some may call it "states". But the question was always: how can I remain in that state without the need for outside intervention?

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, cetus said:

What would Timothy Leary be doing today? Would he be teaching enlightenment to the masses or just another 60's has been?  Seems history answered that one. So where did the hippies go wrong? What was the downfall of that psychedelic era?

Hippies were not doing serious epistemic or ontological work, they were just chasing spiritual group-think and that is still common today. That's the whole New Age movement.

Also, some of those hippies did go into serious spiritual work, so it didn't fail. Very few people are serious about anything.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hippies were not doing serious epistemic or ontological work, they were just chasing spiritual group-think and that is still common today. That's the whole New Age movement.

Also, some of those hippies did go into serious spiritual work, so it didn't fail. Very few people are serious about anything.

In addition - how many of those hippies who made breakthroughs would go on to publicise or teach others/become a guru? 

There could be many enlightened hippies and we would never know.

[Terell Kirby]

10 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There could be many enlightened hippies and we would never know.

Level 1: Enlightened hippie

Level 2: God Realized Sage

[cetus]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, some of those hippies did go into serious spiritual work, so it didn't fail. Very few people are serious about anything.

Hopefully some of the average run of the mill hippies of that day passed their insights onto their children so that they could take that knowledge to the next level.           

[OBEler]

Ralston doesn't allow discussions in his YouTube channel comment section. You just can ask a question to him. That shows what's going on.

There will never be really a discussion with Ralston. 

Edited Thursday at 04:07 AM by OBEler

[James123]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Ralston is doubly wrong. Not only do drugs absolutely raise consciousness, no sober effort of any kind can raise your consciousness as much as drugs can.

It is not just that drugs can, it is that those who haven't taken drugs can't even imagine what drugs can do.

I have seen Ralston's students. None of them are conscious of what I have become conscious of and they never will be.

Self-inquiry is a joke.

Ain't nobody at Ralston's workshops conscious to the level of DMT. Nobody!!! Stop this BS.

It is hard for me to even recommend Ralston any more because of how wrong and dogmatic he is on this issue. He is misleading all of his students about psychedelics.

One breakthrough DMT trip is worth 10 Ralston workshops.

Where is this consciousness to raise it?

What you have, surrender all.

Otherwise, non stop circling is inevitable. 

8 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Everything is it.

What you define everything is based on knowledge, experience, feelings etc... according to you, read a book or eat an apple then get enlightened. 

[Salvijus]

I'm not taking sides but Ralston is more intellectually honest when it comes to this debate imo. The other side has no real counter arguments apart of calling him wrong blatantly over and over. The single counter argument I can see is that he didn't try 5meo. But I think he would simply put 5meo in a "conciousness rising basket of psychedelics" and would reply: yes, I have done those. Ralston is winning this imo. 

Edited Thursday at 05:10 AM by Salvijus

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The other side has no real counter arguments apart of calling him wrong blatantly over and over

The counter-argument is to smoke DMT.

There is no argument here.

[Salvijus]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The counter-argument is to smoke DMT.

There is no argument here.

11 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

The single counter argument I can see is that he didn't try 5meo. But I think he would simply put 5meo in a "conciousness rising basket of psychedelics" and would reply: yes, I have done those.