How to love a girl without developing ONEITIS? Loving without Attachment...

[Rasheed]

How to love a girl without developing ONEITIS? In other words how can one love a girl, be deeply romantic with her, without developing unreasonable sense of attachment—called ONEITIS in Red Pill—thereby when relationship breaks and ends, experience immense grief, pain, and turmoil. 

I am asking this question because, as a man who is oriented to self-actualization, my number one priority is my life purpose. I will never put any romantic relationship, irrespective of anything, over my life purpose as a man, accordingly since heartbreak is so painful, the latter literally makes relationships dangerous because the agony of heartbreak can very easily ruin one's life, make one unproductive, unable to do the work necessary to advance one's purpose and master one's chosen craft. 

Is the above possible: love without pain of a heartbreak, without attachment, without ONEITIS? 

[Schizophonia]

It's the same for what you call your life path, you can lose it and you will pay the bill. 

 

[Rasheed]

2 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

It's the same for what you call your life path, you can lose it and you will pay the bill. 

 

What do you mean by losing a life purpose? Can you elaborate please, I am genuinely curious (in a positive way, of course)

[bazera]

@Rasheed I'm literally experiencing that ONEITIS syndrome right now (it's been around 1 week after breakup), and you are right, it messed up everything for me, I experience loss of meaning in almost everything that I found meaning before (I know it's temporary though, because I've seen that sense of purpose come and go)

I was also thinking of that exact same thing, is it even possible to have deep intimacy and romance without such attachment, not sure. I think part of what makes the intimacy deep is the attachment, and if you avoid the attachment (there is something called avoidant attachment style), it will make things worse.

In a relationship I also tried to detach a bit because I feared of losing her (and experiencing grief of loss), and that created a distance which made things worse in a relationship, not better.

I think not having an attachment would mean that you don't care if you have her or not, but I don't see how that can be healthy, when you want to build deeper intimacy. Having an attachment is like percieving her as part of you, which allows more intimacy then otherwise. 

I failed a relationship because I was too distant, I was avoiding attachment (as I think of it now).

But I think it can be done without ONEITIS, if you somehow create an abundance of options for you. The reason for my ONEITIS I think is that I was too depended on her and haven't developed dating or attraction skills before, so if you develop those skills, you'll be confident to find somebody new (maybe better) if your current one fails. There will be a pain of grief, but the difference might be in duration and intensity. 

What do you think?

And btw, why are you avoiding a pain of grief? I think you want deep intimacy without paying of cost if that intimacy is over. 

Edited Saturday at 07:58 PM by bazera

[theleelajoker]

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Is the above possible: love without pain of a heartbreak, without attachment, without ONEITIS? 

Good question. Tbh, I don't know. If I had to bet, I would say "rather not" - the one goes hand in hand with the other.

I have seen people avoiding intimacy because they want to avoid the pain of losing someone. A quote of a girl was "when I feel that the other might leave, I go myself". At least she was conscious of that - in many other cases I believe to see that people don't even go that far, they never allow that deep intimacy and don't enter deep connections but rather stay distant. And I have seen this kind of behavior many times with men and women. There seems to be a deep desire for connection, but then [ENTER REASON] comes up in the mind and this gives an excuse to avoid potential pain. 

You know that kind of deep insight into life you have when you take LSD (at least believe to have)? I had this once without LSD during a meditation retreat, I got super high just from meditating. I felt this immense feeling and pain in my chest/heart area, and suddenly a lot of people's behavior became crystal clear to me, like a veil was lifted. I could see how a main motivation of a lot of behavior among humans is to avoid this exact pain of someone leaving you after bonding, avoiding the feeling of rejection. 

As @bazera said, the break up after a deep connection was really bad for me - but there are also the moments before the break up, where I felt this connection was some of the best times in my life. 

I don't think abundance mindset really helps, because I had the experience of always meeting a cool new girl after a break up, sometimes even "better" one if you want it like that. With the last gf, I literally told my friends "she's like the best features of my previous ex-gfs combined (looks, sense of humor, character traits etc)". But it still ended, and I still suffered a lot from it. 

Before my last gf, I was happy and content in life. Will be at this stage when I meet the next one. She will be great, probably even "better" than my last. I will be careful not to get attached, but she will be so great and the connection will be so good that it will happen anyway. Then it will end, because everything ends at some point. 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 02:14 PM by theleelajoker

[bazera]

@theleelajoker

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I don't think abundance mindset really helps, because I had the experience of always meeting a cool new girl after a break up, sometimes even "better" one if you want it like that. With the last gf, I literally told my friends "she's like the best features of my previous ex-gfs combined (looks, sense of humor, character traits etc)". But it still ended, and I still suffered a lot from it. 

Do you see a pattern in your behavior that causes relationships to end? Are there some consistent mistakes that you make over and over again?

What are you plan to do differently next time so that the relationship wont end?

Or are modern relationships all doomed to end sooner or later?

[theleelajoker]

2 hours ago, bazera said:

@theleelajoker

Do you see a pattern in your behavior that causes relationships to end? Are there some consistent mistakes that you make over and over again?

What are you plan to do differently next time so that the relationship wont end?

Or are modern relationships all doomed to end sooner or later?

Great questions! Thanks for that 

1. Question - Pattern:

•  at the start: subconsciously choosing women that seem to have insecure attachments style. I then tried to give them a feeling of safety, and it worked to some degree but the main job has to done by the person itself 
•  "trying to work through stuff" - I (we) never succeed in doing that. The less effort and discussion needed to make it work, the better. Accept that a behavior will never change. If I can't accept that, leave.
• Thinking too much about the other one and her behavior, her reasons instead of just enjoying her presence or expressing my desires and needs 
• Not giving myself (enough) love and acceptance. Maybe that's the biggest thing. What hurt last time so much is that I felt she loved me just exactly the way I am, I didn't feel like wearing a mask, and suddenly that love and acceptance was gone. So why I need someone else to accept and love myself, with all my traits, "mistakes" and "flaws"? So I guess the abanduance mindset is not so much about the love of other women, but love towards myself. It's funny because my ex-gfs were far from "perfect" (for example one was super anxious, other one very moody) but I actually did not mind it, I found it kinda cute. Why not give the same acceptance towards me?

2. Doing differently: see above. 

• Plus: just be as present as possible. Enjoy as much as possible. Be as light as possible. Experience all situations with a clean and fresh mind as much as possible. Appreciate the small moments. Not look too much into the future, or carry the past in some way.
• Really feel the first date, first kiss, first time sex, the pain of leaving her apartment in the morning, the joy of seeing her from far, when she smiles at you during pick up at the train station. Stuff like that. I still remember a moment of deep and long eye contact with my ex, lying on bed together. That was magical and I want to be present for that. But also everyday stuff, just looking at her putting food in the fridge after shopping. 
• Appreciate all there is, because of question no.3

3. Modern relationship: They all will end. At best, you die at the same time lol.

Everything else I fear is just getting attached, trying to hold on to something that is evolving. It can also be that you naturally evolve and it's great for both to separate after a cycle of some months or years.

 

Edited Sunday at 05:32 PM by theleelajoker

[bazera]

@theleelajoker Thanks brother, your thoughts are insightful

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Plus: just be as present as possible. Enjoy as much as possible. Be as light as possible. Experience all situations with a clean and fresh mind as much as possible. Appreciate the small moments. Not look too much into the future, or carry the past in some way.

I intuit that if you can't do this alone, it's basically impossible to do it with a partner. That's why right now I want to switch all attention on me, on ironing out my flaws, change my consciousness in a way that I am more comfortable with presense, and with myself in general. I don't mean super metaphysical stuff, just the baseline acceptance of this is what it is.

I can change some aspects like

• weight,
• body composition
• hairstyle
• hair-transplant
• dress style
• being more social,
• being more humurous
• etc

also some deeper aspects that will take more time like

• emotional maturity
• more and more comfortable with just truth
• conscious communication in a relationship
• etc

I don't see myself not making the same mistakes in the next relationships if I don't really work on myself for some time without distractions of having a partner. 

But even if I do that, I think there will be even more attachment if all goes well in a relationship and even more heartbreak when if falls apart for some reason, so yeah, I don't see how we can skip that.

At least if you are proud of who you are and what you've built with your life, the grief time will get shortened from months to weeks, but still, that also depends on girl.

Anyways, path towards maturity is so rough and tough.

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Everything else I fear is just getting attached, trying to hold on to something that is evolving. It can also be that you naturally evolve and it's great for both to separate after a cycle of some months or years.

Yeah, in retrospect I'm sure most of the breakups will be seen as a trampoline for growth (if used correctly), but that's hard to see when you're neck deep in the middle of it.

[theleelajoker]

@bazera I find value in your posts, too. Thanks for the exchange : ) 

Good idea IMO with the acceptance stuff, same I am doing. Just be careful with the "flaw" and "working on yourself" parts. I DEFINITELY get what you mean, it's good to grow and evolve. But there will ALWAYS be something, you know? Self-development and self-improvement can become an infinite trap. The HOW you want to change is very important IMO. 

Example: Let's say you do all the things above, you're happy in a new relationship. And then your best friends says "What you are still monogamous with your gf? You did not evolve to open relationship yet? It's just your ego telling you that you can't share". So you identify this as your next flaw, push yourself to be comfortable with open relationship. You do that, then your second best friend says: "What you are still in open relationship? You did not learn to be happy with just the one women you love? It's just your ego seeking stimulation and approval from others"

You might say I am exaggerating but i I don't think so. From own experience, and seeing it with others. You can be in infinite fight and conflict with different aspects of your personality. Willpower can only go so far IME to deal with it because you can't trick yourself for long.

I wrote about a dream recently, here in this forum, where one character in the dream was literally giving me allowance to do something? Since then I have been thinking about the IFS stuff (only heard about it so far). I never took it serious before or thought it doe not apply much to me. But I changed my mind.  Here is an extract from Richard Schwartz's webpage: 

Is there just one “you”? We’ve been taught to believe we have a single identity, and to feel fear or shame when we can’t control the inner voices that don’t match the ideal of who we think we should be. Yet Dr. Richard Schwartz’s research now challenges this “mono-mind” theory. “All of us are born with many sub-minds―or parts,” says Dr. Schwartz. “These parts are not imaginary or symbolic. They are individuals who exist as an internal family within us―and the key to health and happiness is to honor, understand, and love every part.

There is also another book from John C Lilly, very different style, topic and person. He sees a human bio-computer with different programs running. Cultural, personal and biological programs. And then there is a "Metaprogramm", a "observer", a "decider" and "evaluator" that can be aware & decides what subprograms "are desirable & useful" and which are "not desirable & useful". So we have potential to change our subprogram, but there is also a "Meta-Metaprogramm" that can observe our Metaprogram, right? So how does this "Metaprogramm" talks to us? How does it make decisions? What are the criteria for "useful"? How got the "Metaprogramm" programmed itself? Love or fear? Pressure or inspiration? Integration or separation? Judgment or assessment? Suppression or opening? Being present or pushing away? Am I having fun, or does it feel like "must change"? It's basically about "learning how to learn" and "learning how to change", programming yourself on how to program yourself. What we interact with in our head is often the Metaprogram, but who programmed it? It was not a conscious creation process, it was copy-paste and imitation from family, it was TV, it was marketing, it was social media, it was school, university and social circle. Differences in Metaprograms become for instance more obvious once you lived in a different culture for an extend time. 

Example 1: 

Quote

"Anyways, path towards maturity is so rough and tough."

Is this the only way? Rough and tough? Or learned behavior? How can it be 5% more fun? How 10% more light? Sure, it can be rough - but always? What program tells me it's always rough? Where did I get it from? Is this program, this idea still useful? What happens if I believe the opposite?  What new behaviour and actions could come out of this?  (not saying I can always turn programs around in my mind instantaneously. Learning myself just started reading his book two weeks ago. .but what if I believed I could turn my programs instantaneously? )

Example 2:

So how does it make you feel when I tell you - or you tell yourself -  that you need to work on yourself? Feels somehow right? Feels familiar, yes? That's what you grew up with, an impression family or culture instilled somehow in you?  Does it confirm your (subconscious?) believe that you are not good enough THE WAY YOU ARE RIGHT NOW? I mean, at least there is someone else agreeing that you are not good enough and need to change right? So we can all agree you are not good enough, and only will be good enough in the future if you change XYZ. Chase the carrot please. Would it feel strange to think "I am actually great exactly the way I am right now, and I am proud how far I have come given my circumstances in life?"   (If you disagree to all the questions above, then you can obviously ignore my arguments here haha In this case, continue doing what you're doing and enjoy life!  ) 

I am not saying "don't change, don't reflect etc" - it's obviously important. Just saying the HOW to approach change and life in general is crucial. And the Metaprogram is typically not fully conscious to us. I see it with people all the time. I don't see it re myself. Then I talk to a friend, he gives me a few pointers and I am like "uuuuups I did not notice how my program operates until now"

From reading your message it just feels that you put a lot of pressure on yourself to change many things. On first glance, first impression, with limited information of course - too much pressure.  Sense of humor for instance - IMO don't get that so much from changing anything, but rather not changing anything and then laughing about it. Yeah it's also good to be emotionally more mature, but maybe a girl likes you exactly BECAUSE she finds that cute, or because it allows her to be emotional herself? Same with body composition, I know a guy that goes to the gym a lot and he said "bro it's not as great as you think many girls are intimidated if I look "too good". So yeah being healthy is good, but watch out HOW you metaprogram yourself in relation to change. 

Difficult to put into words, hope you get my point. Of course, saying this I also re-read my own post above and honestly need to check if I am doing the same, putting pressure to change instead of integrating LOL. It's easier to see on the outside.  This guy has a nice guideline - "self understanding instead of self improvement" - resonated quite a lot with me. 

Finally, bug or feature? You could say that consciousness could be anything, why a world full of war, rape and famine? So humans could be "flawless", too? But what would life then be? But that's another topic  

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Yeah, in retrospect I'm sure most of the breakups will be seen as a trampoline for growth (if used correctly), but that's hard to see when you're neck deep in the middle of it.

100%. Fucking sucks. Fuck the retrospect, in this very moment it's just a big shitty mess. 

 

Edited Sunday at 07:59 PM by theleelajoker

[Raze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRB6zAxMA9E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5JJQt_nHzQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIbU5cEX-2U

 

[bazera]

@theleelajoker Yes sure, I recognize that trap. I was just referring to taking some action towards your vision, whatever that might be, instead of being miserable laying in bed eating doritos and crying over a broken relationship for months (I think even that is okay for couple weeks, if it helps, but not healthy in the long term).

And by "working on yourself", I also meant working on shattering the illusions of the self, which should bring more and more clarity over the situation, and might end up in a realization that all this outer changes (maybe even some innner ones) are deeply limited because I guess at some point you turn to existential inqury which makes you look at the structure itself instead of the content of yourself.

But I think I still have a huge room of improvement in the content still, so that's what I was referring. But I know the potential isn't infinite there so I'll make sure not to fall in that trap. 

[theleelajoker]

@bazera

Ok got you re the doritos.

What exactly you mean with looking at structure vs. content?

[bazera]

@theleelajoker By content I meant changing stuff that doesn't require existential investigation and much inquiry, like appearence changes and going out to socialize more, meeting new people.

By structure I meant stuff like contemplating why I do these things at all I mean what I am trying to do, what's my real intentions, what do I really want out of life, what is life anyways, etc.

I don't see how I can avoid making the same mistakes in life (not only in relationships, but in general) without that second way. It requires solitude, not more socializing. 

But in the midst of a griefing period, my mind is all over the place, I can't do anything properly, so I just go with the motions and trust in the healing power of time and the inner intelect of an organism to adapt to a new circumstances of life, which should happen eventually, just a matter of time.

[theleelajoker]

 @bazera

Ok got you.

Yeah I agree re you need the structure stuff. You might come to the conclusion that you don't care about appearance and socializing, so the structure of "why" overrides content.

IME: Solitude can help answering these questions yes. But so can socializing.  

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But in the midst of a griefing period, my mind is all over the place, I can't do anything properly, so I just go with the motions and trust in the healing power of time and the inner intelect of an organism to adapt to a new circumstances of life, which should happen eventually, just a matter of time.

Yeah when I was in a similar situation, I tried to do XYZ to improve my situation. Helped a bit here and there, but there was no magic button. Healing power of time and auto-adaptation will happen eventually IME.