Is the left partly responsible for the radicalization of the right?

[Jacob Morres]

I saw this on my twitter newsfeed and it had me think. What is yall's pov of this?

Edited August 18 by Jacob Morres

[Emerald]

No, the left are just convenient scapegoats to blame the rise of Fascism on.

The reason why Fascism was able to come to a head (after decades of being pushed under the floorboards) is the result of a solid decade of well-strategized and expertly crafted billionaire-funded propaganda campaigns to awaken people's authoritarian instincts... and to normalize and sell far right conservatism as a lifestyle brand to young people.

AND also TONS of far right people organizing on every level of society and government to warm people up to Fascism and implement their agendas. Of course, this is helped along especially by the successes of Donald Trump... as he is particularly good at getting disengaged political normies to join the cause.

And even the talking point in this meme was probably workshopped in a far right think tank 10 years ago to disseminate to the masses to brand jam the left further... as to train people towards the instinct to hate the left and see the right as more reasonable by contrast.

So... don't give the credit of expert-level political organization to leftists. Leftists just have ethical values... but are piss-poor at organizing and don't have two nickels to rub together. 

But the right wing is unified and well-funded by big money interests. So, this past decade has been a masterclass at political organizing to mobilize people towards the Fascist cause and the further empowerment of the powerful at the expense of the vulnerable.

Edited August 19 by Emerald

[aurum]

@Jacob Morres

The left is partially responsible, but it's also exaggerated at times.

You can't blame leftists for every stupid thing conservatives believe. This would be leftists over-functioning.

That being said, leftists are blind to the errors in their own worldview. And it does create unnecessary backlash at times.

Edited August 18 by aurum

[Apparition of Jack]

@Emerald

Elon Musk net worth: $413 billion

Mark Zuckerberg: $270 billion

Peter Thiel: $25.6 billion

Donald Trump: $7 billion

Tucker Carlson: ~$420 million-$2 billion

Joe Rogan: $200 million

Ben Shapiro: $50 million 

etc etc.

 

As always, follow the money. 

 

[Raze]

Obviously, yes.

First the democrats pushed neoliberal policies such as bailing out big banks, NAFTA, and letting big pharma get away with the opioid crisis, this devastated rural white communities.

Then they started campaigning on unpopular fringe social issues like transgender kids, defund the police, and demonizing masculinity.

Further worsening it by taking part in cancel culture and supporting corporations punishing left social issues to make themselves look better.

Polls found one of the biggest reasons Kamala lost votes was because of woke issues she didn’t even bring up in the election, but she had done so in the past giving republicans easy fodder for ads. They had one ad where she said something about trans surgeries for inmates that apparently was very effective.

[Leo Gura]

It's a bad take.

This is where developmental psychology is so useful.

The Blue & Orange stages of development are not the result of stage Green's existence. This is backwards. Stage Green exists as a response to the limitations of Blue & Orange.

Reactionaries are too busy reacting to bother to do some deeper research into the developmental causes of all this woke vs anti-woke culture wars nonsense.

Green's talk about toxic masculinity because it's a real issue. Andrew Tate is the poster boy of toxic masculinity. It's just that people in stage Blue & Orange are not mature enough to see it.

The right-wing wants to portray criticism of itself as being groundless. But it isn't. There is legit grounds to criticize people like Tate, Trump, Musk, etc.

Saying that Green demonizes men is, ironically, a demonization of Green. Green doesn't demonize masculinity, it simply criticizes the toxic parts of masculinity, but those who embody toxic masculinity take that as a personal attack. Toxic masculinity should be demonized. Right-wingers deliberately conflate toxic masculinity as all masculinity, which is a flagrant strawman of Green's position.

Remember, equality is offensive to those who benefit from inequality. Telling men to treat women better is literally offensive to some immature men. Equality itself is a frontal assault on the likes of a selfish ego-maniac like Cobra Tate.

Edited August 19 by Leo Gura

[Hojo]

Left online was taken over by the trans movement and I beleive narratives are being pushed by the media. Trans people are taking up spaces where men use to go and now alot are getting ostracized for using gamer terminology they like to use. These communities are pushing out people of the left movement into the right movement.

I have no idea who is directing media to focus on this stuff. All I know is it was and never has been as big a issue as its being portrait to be. They are 1984 the public via Virtue signaling.

Edited August 19 by Hojo

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

@Emerald

Elon Musk net worth: $413 billion

Mark Zuckerberg: $270 billion

Peter Thiel: $25.6 billion

Donald Trump: $7 billion

Tucker Carlson: ~$420 million-$2 billion

Joe Rogan: $200 million

Ben Shapiro: $50 million 

etc etc.

 

As always, follow the money. 

 

100%

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Apparition of Jack said:

@Emerald

Elon Musk net worth: $413 billion

Mark Zuckerberg: $270 billion

Peter Thiel: $25.6 billion

Donald Trump: $7 billion

Tucker Carlson: ~$420 million-$2 billion

Joe Rogan: $200 million

Ben Shapiro: $50 million 

etc etc.

 

As always, follow the money. 

 

You’re ignoring multiple left leaning millionaires and billionaires.

George Soros for example has given hundreds of millions to left wing causes. 
 

There are even democrat politicians in office with hundreds of millions or even billions in net worth.

Edited August 19 by Raze

[Raze]

56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a bad take.

This is where developmental psychology is so useful.

The Blue & Orange stages of development are not the result of stage Green's existence. This is backwards. Stage Green exists as a response to the limitations of Blue & Orange.

Reactionaries are too busy reacting to bother to do some deeper research into the developmental causes of all this woke vs anti-woke culture wars nonsense.

Green's talk about toxic masculinity because it's a real issue. Andrew Tate is the poster boy of toxic masculinity. It's just that people in stage Blue & Orange are not mature enough to see it.

The right-wing wants to portray criticism of itself as being groundless. But it isn't. There is legit grounds to criticize people like Tate, Trump, Musk, etc.

Saying that Green demonizes men is, ironically, a demonization of Green. Green doesn't demonize masculinity, it simply criticizes the toxic parts of masculinity, but those who embody toxic masculinity take that as a personal attack. Toxic masculinity should be demonized. Right-wingers deliberately conflate toxic masculinity as all masculinity, which is a flagrant strawman of Green's position.

Remember, equality is offensive to those who benefit from inequality. Telling men to treat women better is literally offensive to some immature men.

- None of this conflicts with the idea the left is partially responsible for a radicalization of the right. You mention reactionaries, they are reacting to something. You may say that it’s just exposing the development that was already there, but it’s still a radicalization. One example is how some communities become more racist as they go from being racially homogenous to having a significant minority, because now they see them as a significant force of outsiders as opposed to not a big deal.  

- We can even see this in polls with how opinions on things like immigration or gay marriage shifted to the right. (Though I think immigration shifted back recently) 

- Maybe genuine Green doesn’t demonize masculinity, but large swaths of the left who are enabled by stage green people clearly do. Even some feminist authors have acknowledged the term toxic masculinity is used by many to insult men, even if they claim that wasn’t the original intention.

Edited August 19 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Raze said:

You mention reactionaries, they are reacting to something.

Look, every atom in the universe reacts to every other.

Culture wars are like a pinball bouncing around the machine. There's reactionary behavior all around.

The right-wing is always reacting to progress. That's been happening since the beginning of humankind.

500,000 years ago there was some right-wing caveman reacting against not being allowed to rape his own mother.

Edited August 19 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's a bad take.

This is where developmental psychology is so useful.

The Blue & Orange stages of development are not the result of stage Green's existence. This is backwards. Stage Green exists as a response to the limitations of Blue & Orange.

Reactionaries are too busy reacting to bother to do some deeper research into the developmental causes of all this woke vs anti-woke culture wars nonsense.

Green's talk about toxic masculinity because it's a real issue. Andrew Tate is the poster boy of toxic masculinity. It's just that people in stage Blue & Orange are not mature enough to see it.

The right-wing wants to portray criticism of itself as being groundless. But it isn't. There is legit grounds to criticize people like Tate, Trump, Musk, etc.

Saying that Green demonizes men is, ironically, a demonization of Green. Green doesn't demonize masculinity, it simply criticizes the toxic parts of masculinity, but those who embody toxic masculinity take that as a personal attack. Toxic masculinity should be demonized. Right-wingers deliberately conflate toxic masculinity as all masculinity, which is a flagrant strawman of Green's position.

Well said. 

The issue is that Blue and Orange people (including the ones on this forum who believe themselves to be Tier 2 thinkers and critiquing Green from above), will tend to see Green as outlandish and will want to see only a caricatured strawman of Green.

So, taking a common reasonable Green positions like, "People shouldn't be treated unjustly and should be respected despite their differences" gets reframed as "These crazy leftists want total equality of outcome, to castrate all men, and to turn your dog trans!"

And along the lines of what you were saying, I recently ran across an article about a large-scale survey of many women (Feminists and non-Feminists) where 19% of the participants identified as Feminists and 81% did not identify themselves as Feminists. And they were asked a series of questions about their feelings and attitudes about men.

And men were also surveyed in this study and asked the same questions about their feelings and attitudes about men in this study.

And both Feminist women and non-Feminist women tended to hold similarly positive views of men... though both Feminists and non-Feminists were mistaken that the Feminist group would hold more negative views about men than the non-Feminists.

But Feminists' views on men tended to match more with men's perceptions of men than non-Feminist women's perceptions of men.

Feminists were also more likely to see men and women as similar to themselves and to chalk up most gender differences to environmental factors, while non-Feminists had more of a tendency to see men as starkly different from themselves and see gender differences as a reflection of innate nature.

So, Feminists would tend to view things like Toxic Masculinity as an environmental/societal issue rather than an innate propensity towards toxicity that men have... which likely has a lot to do with why Feminists have generally positive views of men despite their critiques of culture.

And that matches my experiences as a woman who subscribes to Feminism.

I always felt very positively about many individual men that I interact with, depending on their individual character.

So, I don't relate large-scale societal injustices that disenfranchise women to individual men. That is, unless those men are loud and proud supporters of said disenfranchisement, like Andrew Tate types and those who agree with his perspectives on women.

[Emerald]

47 minutes ago, Raze said:

You’re ignoring multiple left leaning millionaires and billionaires.

George Soros for example has given hundreds of millions to left wing causes. 
 

There are even democrat politicians in office with hundreds of millions or even billions in net worth.

There are VERY FEW big money interests that fund leftwing causes. And there is no such equivalent leftwing propaganda network, as lefties don't get big money dollars.

Now, George Soros himself has donated to some progressive causes over the years.

Like he helped countries democratize after the fall of the Soviet Union, funded college tuition for black South Africans during apartheid, donated a LOT of funding of a few specific universities, donated money to a cause to help pull impoverished African people out of poverty, donated to defense committees to help controversial defendants procure legal defense, and donated money to racial justice groups and criminal justice reforms.

So, he is using his wealth to support philanthropic progressive causes.

But none of these things have to do with funding a strategic propaganda network to brainwash people into being leftists. That's just what the right wing thinks he is.

But then, when Elon Musk was helping Trump, he proudly proclaimed himself to be the "George Soros of the right".

It's just yet another instance of "Every accusation is a confession."

The reality is that leftists don't have anywhere near the funding and resources allotted to the far right from the billionaire class, major industries, and even foreign governments. And that's because leftist causes go against corporate interests. 

That's why many people who were once left-wing pundits make a big deal about, "Why I left the Left." They want the riches that come along with joining the right wing media-sphere.

The reality is that there are big money interests flowing into right wing independent media and right wing think tanks.

Being in leftwing independent media pays nothing. Soros most definitely isn't funding bread-tube in the way that billionaires are funding the Daily Wire lot.

Right wing independent media pundits are making millions and millions of dollars... to the point where Steven Crowder accused Ben Shapiro (The Daily Wire) of "slavery" when he offered him a contract for a "measly" $50 million dollars. 

And Tim Pool, Dave Rubin, and Benny Johnson were getting big money from Russia to say their talking points on their shows. 

The reality is that the right wing propaganda machine is well-oiled and constructed by big money interests to influence the masses to be more sympathetic to right wing perspectives.... and the left doesn't have anything close to equivalent to that level of power.

[Leo Gura]

48 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, taking a common reasonable Green positions like, "People shouldn't be treated unjustly and should be respected despite their differences" gets reframed as "These crazy leftists want total equality of outcome, to castrate all men, and to turn your dog trans!"

Yes, it's comically blind.

[Elliott]

Republicans have poured billions into brainwashing young men, a few on this forum. It's unsustainable though, and a lot of these incels are going to take themselves out. The left is not responsible, girls have always been mean to boys, conservatives just cry about it now.

Edited August 19 by Elliott

[Leo Gura]

24 minutes ago, Elliott said:

It's unsustainable though

They don't need to brainwash them. Stage Blue & Orange group-think just naturally works that way in immature young men. And there's a new immature kid born every day.

Maturity is like a leaky ship.

Edited August 19 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

Imagine honestly believing that racists are caused by those who denounce racism.

That's right-wing logic.

Lolz

Sexism, racism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, and domination are such primodial forces, they have existed caveman days.

Edited August 19 by Leo Gura

[Elliott]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They don't need to brainwash them. Stage Blue & Orange group-think just naturally works that way in immature young men. And there's a new immature kid born every day.

Maturity is like a leaky ship.

I'm not sure what way you're talking about.

The oncoming great economic hardship will take care of the immaturity though.

Perhaps it's just the young people I'm around, but I'm very impressed with the young generation. Very intelligent and mature, much more than the previous generations.

[Raze]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

They don't need to brainwash them. Stage Blue & Orange group-think just naturally works that way in immature young men. And there's a new immature kid born every day.

Maturity is like a leaky ship.

That’s ridiculous as young men shifted to the right, they didn’t suddenly become less mature. They are also shifting away from the right now. What actually happened is democrats alienated them with rhetoric so they moved right, but the right didn’t really serve them so they moved back to dem or went undecided.

 

57 minutes ago, Elliott said:

Republicans have poured billions into brainwashing young men, a few on this forum. It's unsustainable though, and a lot of these incels are going to take themselves out. The left is not responsible, girls have always been mean to boys, conservatives just cry about it now.

No they didn’t, there was no large scale funded effort by republicans to try and court young men. Men shifted there as democrats alienated them with rhetoric and republicans became popular on some alt media platforms democrats (purposefully) avoided.

The rest of your comment is so stupid it doesn’t merit a response. 

Edited August 19 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

That’s ridiculous as young men shifted to the right, they didn’t suddenly become less mature

Dude, online male culture has always been immature, sexist, racist, and homophobic. This isn't some new thing Trump invented.

You don't need to brainwash horny immature fools. They naturally brainwash themselves.

Edited August 19 by Leo Gura