Anti human spirituality

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

This.

The only thing I am getting from the conversation is that there is a total refused to drop frame/consider ANY alternative. Not even as a simple thought experiment.

Ironically, this is the opposite of the 'openness' principal reiterated.

I am hanging on because the questions keep coming after I feel its done

Edited to add: I think the problem is 'no-self' is being looked at through the lens of the ego and identity. And because this frame is being clung to, it sounds like severance from being human. Erasing being human. But it is the idea that the permanent 'me' is false. Human experience is still had, felt with more genuine compassion and a heightened feeling of interconnectivity. Humanity is bigger than just the 'you'.

@Carl-Richard @Natasha Tori MaruYou're not going to win against @Breakingthewall hes as stubborn as it gets.  Sorry you found out so late. 

Edited Thursday at 10:51 AM by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You just said it was an illusion above - you used the words 'image' 'projections'. Your words.

Everything you see, hear or touch are images that your brain creates from light, waves, etc.

6 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

have you considered this is NOT useful? Contemplated what life would be, as a human, without it? What do you think that might be?

This question? I answered but I do again: I don't know what life would be like without a self. I suppose it's similar to how an animal lives in the jungle, but we are not animals, our structure is different, it is precisely having a self.

4 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

What is awareness without self?

You are a smart cookie - you understand these questions. And if you don't, don't rush to answer. Have a think on it.

Thanks for the compliment, coming from someone so tough I'll take it as a double compliment.

What we call awareness is perception right? So we perceive forms with light and touch, we perceive temperature, hunger, pain, all of that. It's what an insect, for example, would perceive. Then, other, more complex beings expand their range of possibilities and perceive the need to protect their young, their position in the herd, all of that. And beyond this, the human being emerges, where there's a split. They are no longer a being tied to their environment, nor totally limited by their genetics. It gives birth to a new being, so to speak: the mind.

This mind evolves independently of the gene, and its perception is not limited to the senses; it can perceive different levels of reality. It can perceive the past, the future, its social position with infinite nuances. It can penetrate the structure of reality, modify it, travel to other planets, become immortal, master genetics, conquer galaxies, and colonize the universe, to then transcend matter and become a flow of pure interdimensional intelligence that encompasses the infinity of reality 😅

 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Carl-Richard @Natasha Tori MaruYou're not going to win against @Breakingthewall hes as stubborn as it gets.  Sorry you found out so late. 

I'm not about being stubborn, It's completely obvious that they don't see something that is completely clear. Why is the self an illusion? It's just as illusory as anything else, so if everything is equally illusory, nothing is illusory; it's simply reality. Denying the self as illusory and accepting the reality of the senses as real turns spirituality into a joke, into avoidance, into something reduced. I think I gave some arguments, you could argue them, nuance, anything, but telling: you are wrong, you are asleep. That doesn't lead any place 

[Breakingthewall]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Look at it go. Exactly what I said you said.

Me: "I think bread is edible. Do you think bread is edible?"

Breakingthewall: "I think bread can be digested and have its nutrients extracted by the stomach."

Me: "Yeah ok, but do you see how you said the same thing?"

Breakingthewall: "You just don't seem to understand me".

Me: "What if I told you I could define the word 'peanut butter" in 10 different ways? Would you see it then?"

Breakingthewall: "Peanut butter is a mixture of peanuts, oils and other additives".

 

The reason why you seem to disagree so much, why you keep responding with blocks of text to everything, why everything seems to loop and no conversation gets resolved and it all continues forever, is because you're not conceding your frame (ironically clinging to your frame, or just not considering the other frame), and sometimes the frame is the only issue.

It's different to say that reality is consciousness than consciousness is reality. Absolutely different, one is a closed framework and the other is open.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Everything you see, hear or touch are images that your brain creates from light, waves, etc.

So your brain 'creates' the illusion?

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

This question? I answered but I do again: I don't know what life would be like without a self. I suppose it's similar to how an animal lives in the jungle, but we are not animals, our structure is different, it is precisely having a self.

This is something to be considered with some serious enquiry  You would still have feelings, see shapes, hear, smell, touch. What happens when there is no attachment? Is there still love?

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

What we call awareness is perception right?

Awareness & perception - I think these are often lumped together, but they are not the same beast.

Awareness = the light is on. You can be aware the light is on without actively noticing or interpreting it. Awareness doesn't choose what you experience, it just 'is'. It is more like a passive presence. A capacity to know something is happening.

Perception = what the light is shining on and how you interpret it. Perception is like how awareness gets filtered through your senses, nervous system, beliefs and mind. It includes interpretation, recognition and meaning making. It is very active in that it involves the brain processes, labels, comparisons.

They are very much 2 different things.

So how would you answer this:

15 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

What is awareness without self?

taking into account awareness without perception?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Inliytened1 Indeed

I am rather enjoying this dyad and it is helping me refine my own understanding - so no effort wasted.

As long as we are aware its just thoughts and some verbal jousting. No one gets upset... I am happy to get into this existential sloppy mess !

[Breakingthewall]

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

So your brain 'creates' the illusion?

No, your brain creates images that are the reality, like anything else. 

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

What happens when there is no attachment? Is there still love?

Having no attachments doesn't mean having no self, it means having a self without attachments

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

A capacity to know something is happening.

And who has that capacity? 

Conciousness is just an appearance in the sense that it's just the reality, and in the reality seems that a center knows that something is happening, when what is happening is the flow. The flow itself is everything, and you think that you are concious of the flow when you are the flow

Edited Thursday at 11:58 PM by Breakingthewall

[Joshe]

On 8/13/2025 at 5:10 AM, Breakingthewall said:

Left layers and layers of fear.

Perhaps you don’t realize the extent of the threat implanted in your brain’s amygdala. Your whole being is compressed by a vibration of anxious self-protection that closes you off. It’s innate ,not an illusion.

Let me illustrate this with a story:
A few years ago, I was with a girl in Puerto La Cruz, Venezuela. I got hold of a sailboat with a crushed mast base. I spent two weeks repairing it with epoxy resin mixed with sawdust. Then I installed the mast, which weighed about 500 kg and exerts a pressure of 11 tons on the base under rough conditions.

Without stamping our passports , to avoid anyone foreseeing our departure and risking being murdered at sea for theft , we set off one night. I was worried about it for the first two days, but then I forgot.

From there we sailed to Jamaica , an intense 8-day crossing where I saw the mast holding up. Then we went on to Cuba, the Bahamas, and from there to Bermuda. The boat was 45 years old and poorly maintained. The engine could only be used in very specific situations.

Between Bermuda and the Azores, we hit a storm with sustained winds of around 100 km/h for five days, generating waves over 10 meters high, with lightning striking near the boat.

During that time, I set an alarm every 30 minutes at night. Every time it rang, I went outside to inspect everything, because the materials were under maximum tension, in the middle of wind as hurricane, movement as watermachine and hard rain. I kept checking the base of the mast , made of sawdust and epoxy , measuring it with calipers many times a day to see if it had shrunk even a millimeter.

This creates a tension, a high-frequency survival vibration, present every second for many days without pause. It’s extremely useful for understanding how the structure of closure operates, because it becomes much more noticeable.

That same vibration is present when you’re sitting in a city drinking coffee , because there are constant latent threats of various kinds. One of them is not being accepted by society. Your system registers it as a threat, just like being in serious trouble in the middle of the ocean ,only more muted.

If you want to open that closure, you have to understand it, not deny it. That’s absolutely essential

 

Badass story. Respect.

it sounds like you’re talking about hyper-vigilance, or living in the red, and even to come down to yellow (such as at the coffee shop), you’re still vigilant with your survival to a degree. This is true, but what happens when you remove this ‘closure’? Does something automatically happen or does it just allow the possibility for something to happen? 

Edited Thursday at 11:59 PM by Joshe

[Breakingthewall]

17 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Perception = what the light is shining on and how you interpret it. Perception is like how awareness gets filtered through your senses, nervous system, beliefs and mind. It includes interpretation, recognition and meaning making. It is very active in that it involves the brain processes, labels, comparisons.

Thats your personal definition, because the definition of perception is the sight, touch, etc. 

[Breakingthewall]

5 minutes ago, Joshe said:

but what happens when you remove this ‘closure’? Does something automatically happen or does it just allow the possibility for something to happen? 

It happens that the contraction disappears, then reality reveals itself as unlimited, you are the flow of the real taking on a form that is interconnected with the whole, you have no limit and what you are is beyond form, you are immortal, and you perceive it with absolute clarity right now, and you perceive how infinity flows with you, is one with you. But it is not at all easy to maintain this state, since human nature is programmed to close

[Natasha Tori Maru]

5 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Thats your personal definition, because the definition of perception is the sight, touch, etc. 

I do not think so. Might want to look into this as there could be confusion here.

You have to agree to use English definitions and understandings otherwise there is no point talking

Edited Friday at 12:08 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

It happens that the contraction disappears, then reality reveals itself as unlimited, you are the flow of the real taking on a form that is interconnected with the whole, you have no limit and what you are is beyond form, you are immortal, and you perceive it with absolute clarity right now, and you perceive how infinity flows with you, is one with you. But it is not at all easy to maintain this state, since human nature is programmed to close

So your claim is by completely shedding all fear, enlightenment occurs? I’m not being critical here, just curious, because I’m not deep into spirituality. 

[Breakingthewall]

3 minutes ago, Joshe said:

So your claim is by completely shedding all fear, enlightenment occurs? I’m not being critical here, just curious, because I’m not deep into spirituality. 

It's not just fear, it's contraction. It's something energetic, is how your system works. It's natural being a human, even when you are a kid there is contraction. you could say that it basis is fear, but not just physical fear but need of maintaining your limits, like being in an energetic bubble. 

If you break it, you really perceive yourself as unlimited, because you are unlimited. When you are closed you perceive yourself as limited because you really are limited, there are energetic limits that the system that you are is maintaining. You can't break it at will, they are extremely strong, it's like an enigma to be able to dissolve them

[Joshe]

31 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's not just fear, it's contraction. It's something energetic, is how your system works. It's natural being a human, even when you are a kid there is contraction. you could say that it basis is fear, but not just physical fear but need of maintaining your limits, like being in an energetic bubble. 

If you break it, you really perceive yourself as unlimited, because you are unlimited. When you are closed you perceive yourself as limited because you really are limited, there are energetic limits that the system that you are is maintaining. You can't break it at will, they are extremely strong, it's like an enigma to be able to dissolve them

Thanks for explaining. 

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I do not think so. Might want to look into this as there could be confusion here.

You have to agree to use English definitions and understandings otherwise there is no point talking

Okay, it's how you interpret something too.

Interpreting something is the flow of reality, exactly the same as seeing something. If you divide them, considering vision or touch as pure, direct, and interpretation as impure, egoic, or false, you are creating two categories of reality. One “natural” and clean, and another “artificial” and distorted.

There is no artificial reality. Interpretation is exactly as real as touch; both are forms reality takes in the mind. Vision, hearing, and touch are not raw windows to “what’s out there” but relational patterns created by the brain, yet the brain itself is reality taking that form. Interpretation is another pattern of this same process.

As a child, your frontal lobe is not yet developed and interpretation occupies little space; later it takes a central role, shaped by biology, also by culture and experience. Interpretation is structured in ways that trigger chemical releases as part of human genetical programming.

I know the contra argument: you are conciousness and interpretation happen in you as conciousness.

To say that "consciousness is a screen where things appear, and if you cling to them, you get lost and your nature as consciousness gets hidden" is a logical error. There is no consciousness without content: all consciousness is consciousness of something. Separating "pure consciousness" from "what appears" creates an artificial dualism. In reality, conciousness and interpretation are the same: both are relationships within the flow. Identification or closure is not clinging to a mental object, but an energetic contraction, a structural tightening of the form that generates the sense of being an isolated fragment, when in fact you are the flow itself taking this conscious form now.

 

Edited Friday at 09:54 AM by Breakingthewall

[theleelajoker]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's not just fear, it's contraction. It's something energetic, is how your system works. It's natural being a human, even when you are a kid there is contraction. you could say that it basis is fear, but not just physical fear but need of maintaining your limits, like being in an energetic bubble. 

If you break it, you really perceive yourself as unlimited, because you are unlimited. When you are closed you perceive yourself as limited because you really are limited, there are energetic limits that the system that you are is maintaining. You can't break it at will, they are extremely strong, it's like an enigma to be able to dissolve them

 

42 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Okay, it's how you interpret something too.

Interpreting something is the flow of reality, exactly the same as seeing something. If you divide them, considering vision or touch as pure, direct, and interpretation as impure, egoic, or false, you are creating two categories of reality. One “natural” and clean, and another “artificial” and distorted.

There is no artificial reality. Interpretation is exactly as real as touch; both are forms reality takes in the mind. Vision, hearing, and touch are not raw windows to “what’s out there” but relational patterns created by the brain, yet the brain itself is reality taking that form. Interpretation is another pattern of this same process.

As a child, your frontal lobe is not yet developed and interpretation occupies little space; later it takes a central role, shaped by biology, also by culture and experience. Interpretation is structured in ways that trigger chemical releases as part of human genetical programming.

I know the contra argument: you are conciousness and interpretation happen in you as conciousness.

To say that "consciousness is a screen where things appear, and if you cling to them, you get detached of your nature as consciousness" is a logical error. There is no consciousness without content: all consciousness is consciousness of something. To separate "pure consciousness" from "what appears" is to create an artificial dualism. The reality is that conciousness and interpretation are the same: both are relationships within the flow. Identification or closure is not clinging to a mental object, but contracting into believing/feeling by your energetic configuration that your form is an isolated fragment, when in reality you are the flow itself taking this conscious form now.

My POV:  it's all one system. What you talk about correlates close with your body. Mental limits = emotional limits = physical limits = energetic limits. You can seemingly "isolate" one part of the system, and then you limit perception, but it's still one system, or one consciousness. 

I agree on the enigma. It's like a puzzle, and you need to find the pieces, and then how they fit together. 

Edited Friday at 09:06 AM by theleelajoker

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Breakingthewall If you cannot define and agree to language then that is the end of that. I am just SO surprised you refuse a simple thought experiment or contemplation that doesn't fit your frame. Awareness is fundamental, perception arises within it. Perception does not have to be present when one is just 'being'. Serious meditation should have revealed this...

I hope you can open yourself up to be able to look from other frames and perspectives. When you are ready you will arrive at the truth waiting

Enjoy!

@Inliytened1 I see what you mean!!

Edited Friday at 09:30 AM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Breakingthewall]

41 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

you cannot define and agree to language then that is the end of that. I am just SO surprised you refuse a simple thought experiment or contemplation that doesn't fit your frame. Awareness is fundamental, perception arises within it. Perception does not have to be present when one is just 'being'. Serious meditation should have revealed this...

I hope you can open yourself up to be able to look from other frames and perspectives. When you are ready you will arrive at the truth

Maybe you didn't read, I told: ok , perception is also interpretation. Then you answering putting me down without the slightest reference to my text. I don't know why I wrote it then

I wrote this because I did that experiment hundred of times, let's see if you can read it, then maybe you could answer without that emotional condescendence 

Again:

To say that "consciousness is a screen where things appear, and if you cling to them, you get lost and  your nature as consciousness gets hidden" is a logical error. There is no consciousness without content: all consciousness is consciousness of something. Separating "pure consciousness" from "what appears" creates an artificial dualism. In reality, conciousness and interpretation are the same: both are relationships within the flow. Identification or closure is not clinging to a mental object, but an energetic contraction, a structural tightening of the form that generates the sense of being an isolated fragment, when in fact you are the flow itself taking this conscious form now.

Edited Friday at 09:54 AM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

51 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

What you talk about correlates close with your body. Mental limits = emotional limits = physical limits = energetic limits.

Exactly, it's something real in the actual configuration of the reality. You can dissolve those energetic limits, but if you get in that mess of : I am pure conciousness, you can't, it's impossible. You will think that you are enlightened thinking that you are the screen where the movement happens and this is duality. All the non duality teachers teach duality 

Pure conciousness implies a a witness, a subject and an object. An static center where the experience happens, an experiencer and an experience. 

 

Edited Friday at 09:56 AM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

@Natasha Tori Maru @Natasha Tori Maru

Simpler:

 

Unlimited reality is absolute being. Reality is not consciousness; consciousness is one facet of reality. The distinction is total. The nature of absolute being is limitlessness, expressed as infinite relationships. Relationship implies change, and change is what being is. Absolute being is inmutable in its nature, that is limitlessness, and always changing in it's manifestation, that is change. 

 Do you want to talk about this, or would you rather tell me I'm this or that?

Edited Friday at 11:52 AM by Breakingthewall