Anti human spirituality

[Sugarcoat]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well, sure we are all one from a mystical perspective and all that, but I'm speaking from the normal perspective where you don't want to be hit with a hammer on the head, but you don't mind if they hit the stone with a hammer.

The self is an energetic structure as real as stone; it's stable and structured with mathematical precision at the genius level. The thing is, self structures are dynamic; they can change. But if you have a fear of heights, it's not enough to simply let go of the thought of terror; that's a lie. You'll have to practice climbing for five years intensively to retrain your brain. And if what you want is to not react if you see your five-year-old children being tortured, then it's probably impossible. These are the foundations of the self, and you have to see them as they are, so you can align that real self so that it's fluid and transparent, to the extent possible. 

If the idea: the self is just a thought, it's an irreal illusion created by human imagination, gets installed in you, you will get frustrated trying to silence the self creating a duality, the screen where the thoughts arises, without achieve nothing but a kind of anesthesia that have a price: castration of the alive flow that you are

Got it. I agree. But if the mystical perspective is the true one, must mean this normal perspective has a kind of illusion to it? 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Half of the problem is that there is a massive attachment to thoughts and ideas happening. So when holes are pointed in the basic metaphysical assumptions behind the premise, there is an emotional reaction. 

This reaction is in your control, but you seem to think others 'cause' you to react. Half your premise is based on foregoing responsibility for you own internal state - this is the inhuman part no? 

But the commonality is the individual (the self) - some users here would, for example, not get emotional like you. What is occuring there? If the reaction cannot be helped, how can it be different between individuals? The premise is that thoughts are at the base of the human, and that history and conditioning cannot be changed. Or not without a lot of 'FORCE' - the inhuman part again. 

This is a false assumption - thoughts are not fundamental. I could be wrong. But it seems to me this is at the base of it. 

There is also no differentiation between perception and awareness (madness... Really strange and important definition). And if there is now, there wasn't when the premise was created (this was discussed a few pages ago). 

So just from the above - that is 2 assumptions of which the premise is based on. 2 faults already.

So none is going to attack the premise as it is a faulty conclusion based on unsteady assumptions - this shows a lack of serious contemplation and care given to fundamentals.

And THIS is what the mods have been doing - attempting to get you to rethink these assumptions. Because the faulty conclusion (premise of the thread) is based all on this. This is why @UnbornTao's advice is to return to basics. And it's not cruel to point this out - if you look at all the contemplation threads here many other users are attempting to pull hard topics apart, being shown it is incorrect, throwing it away, and re-evaluating. 

The problem the mods are pointing out is that Breakingthewall staunchly refuses to be guided into contemplation or to give up their perspective/worldview. They are clinging desperately to these assumptions and will not even try a simple thought experiment (again if you read the thread you will see this happening, an attempt to guide, then frustration at the stubbornness). Others here have been trying to understand but we cannot as these assumptions (thought is fundamental, awareness/perception is the same, humans are have a permanent psychology/ego/self) stop us and we go 'wait a minute! This is an error' 

Who cares if you have spent hours thinking about this - I spend hours sometimes contemplating only to post, have someone show me an error and then throw it all away!

Breakingthewall thinks you cannot control your reactions - so the self therefore is real. Immutable. 

They may be correct about some other things, but this is not correct. And it causes people to be victims. Like they have no choice but to react and attach to everything - causing unnecessary suffering. 

I do not like this conclusion because I feel it can do some insidious damage to others who take this on. 

And yes we (the mods) are repeatedly called narcissists because we have realised this and seen the effects: a reduction in suffering. Greater emotional control, more compassion, love, surrender. But we are inhuman because this is seen by Breakingthewall as repression. It is not at all. You feel MORE. The complex of attachment isn't in the way, so all is felt more keenly. Action can be taken in the moment without hesitation. And it is truer than when the self injects it's personal needs and feelings into the process. You need to really dive into the feelings and self and contemplate to realise this - the opposite of repression. Which, again, is why @UnbornTao is pushing to contemplate the self.

I could be wrong but that is the long and short of my understanding. 

Read the thread - Breakingthewall refuses to give up their frame or assumptions so they cannot counter argue as a result. Just repeat the same thing. 

This isn't isolated to this thread either - it is a running theme for them. 

Also really just admit it - you don't like the self being an illusion because it is echoing Ralston. And you hate Ralston. This is where it all comes from 😏

 

Edited Sunday at 10:11 PM by Natasha Tori Maru

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Schizophonia is on the mark, the mirror effect is what I see here also. Enjoy their perspective on these threads as it always comes into play 'mirror effect' 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Jesus Christ.

💀 I felt you explained exactly why...

[UnbornTao]

@Natasha Tori Maru True dat.

Edited Sunday at 11:58 PM by UnbornTao

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Which, again, is why @UnbornTao is pushing to contemplate the self.

Thanks,. that so kind advice from both. At first I took it like condescendence and mocking, crazy right? It's clear that both of you are true and noble.

But I already did for many years. spent about 2,5 years meditating for several hours a day and I still meditate every day. I also went on psychedelics hundreds of times. I did  5meo DMT hundreds of times in high doses, specifically contemplating the self. I also dedicated about 10 years to rock climbing, sailing, and gliding in the most extreme conditions, contemplating the nature of fear. I also did a lot of combats in boxing in quite high level contemplating the nature of the dynamic of ego, submission, fear, domination. Was extremely useful. I also started 4 business from zero, 3 with success, contemplating the nature of uncertainty and faith.

But anyway, you are very kind, I will do more contemplation following your advices.

Edited Monday at 05:29 AM by Breakingthewall

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Honestly, I have spent a lot of time meditating in my life.

And my methods were dogshit >.< Real trash. In the last year I changed my practice up.

I had to change what I was doing to make real progress and see real results. I don't mean to imply any time is wasted, only that sometimes 'time' isn't a good measure of investment. I did learn a lot through failing at meditation and contemplation - so for me it wasn't a waste.

You are very intelligent - it shows. 

If you felt any emotion from my posts - it is all frustration that comes from me, as a result of a failure to properly guide and communicate in text. It is not meant to be directional. And I apologize if it was received as so. I know I am a bit fierce through text.

I know that we all have the power within us to break out of internal patterns that hold us back. All emotion and feeling is always valid. It takes a lot of work to deconstruct where it comes from. It, to me, is some of the hardest spiritual work you can do.

Even though there was a lot of disagreement here - I did really enjoy the exchange!!

 <3 

 

[Mellowmarsh]

On 02/08/2025 at 5:35 PM, Breakingthewall said:

 

 

Most of the spirituality It is based on the denial of human nature.  The mind is seen as a prison, desire as suffering, and the ego as the great enemy. This view, even when disguised as non-duality, is rooted in a radical dualism: the real versus the illusory, the pure versus the corrupt, the divine versus the human.

The result is a deeply unnatural spirituality. The human being is asked to renounce himself, to nullify himself, to stop being what he is . to cut off all vital direction, every impulse, every expression. At its core, this view conveys the idea that reality has made a mistake , the human being, and that this mistake must be corrected through effort, discipline, and denial. The basis of spirituality usually is the elimination of the ego. Seems that being human is wrong, then we should point to be a plant, that "just be". This is achieved erasing the "falsehood", that is the ego mind. Have the birds ego? Aren't they perfect? Then, why aren't you a bird. Then, we find people trying to be a egoless bird with the giant effort of their ego to stop being humans. They will say: I'm enlightened, now there is not suffering. Well, no, enlightenment happened, and there is nobody here, because who was here was an illusion. It's difficult to be more controller.

this vision is false. There is no mistake in human nature, as it's an expression of the reality. The human structure is not to be eliminated, but understood and opened. What the human being needs is not to erase himself, but to open fully to what is. To understand that his form, with all its nuances, is part of the infinite flow. The ego does not need to be killed , it needs to be seen. The mind does not need to be crushed, it need to be open. Desire doesn't need to be erased, must to be aligned.

True openness is not about becoming a plant. It is about living without a mask, from within the structure we are, but open to what has no bottom. It means integrating complexity, desire, conflict, and the creative power that is the human being, and allowing it all to dissolve into something vaster, be one with the flow.

Or maybe do you think that reality made a mistake and YOU have to solve it?

This is very intelligently thought out. It’s impeccable and well articulated. I agree on all points you’ve made.
 

My own personal logic shows me that you need an ego to get rid of an ego. Same goes for thoughts, and the mind, to get rid of them, one first has to have them. So yes, you are well on point in your op.

What’s so pitifully stupid about your op? I can’t see it.

Try not to be self defeating or self sabotaging, why doubt yourself when all you can do is express yourself the only way you know how according to your own experience as and through your own personal lens of perception.

 

You’re doing well. We’re all doing the exact same expression of ourselves into the nature of being. 
 

You are the only author of your reality you know. Just be yourself unapologetically because there is no one like you, only you live as you. And your knowledge comes from the exact same source as everyone else’s knowledge so never doubt your own knowledge as inferior to someone else’s. That’s the stupid part okay. 😊

 

 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Mellowmarsh I think the core of @Breakingthewall's premise is that repression or trying to shut down thoughts to stop emotions doesn't work. This is inhuman. And using force like this can be viewed as such.

However, using force to do this doesn't work.

Where the big issue comes is where no-self comes in - if not fully understood and integrated the natural conclusion is that no-self is anti human. This results from believing no self means repressing emotion and thought. But this is not what no-self is. No denial of feeling or emotion is part of it.

So the premise is correct.

It's just that the 'self' being an illusion leads to false assumptions when not integrated. 

I think this highlights how dangerous some knowledge can be when not integrated. 

That is my understanding anyway - I could be wrong.

[Mellowmarsh]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Mellowmarsh I think the core of @Breakingthewall's premise is that repression or trying to shut down thoughts to stop emotions doesn't work. This is inhuman. And using force like this can be viewed as such.

However, using force to do this doesn't work.

Where the big issue comes is where no-self comes in - if not fully understood and integrated the natural conclusion is that no-self is anti human. This results from believing no self means repressing emotion and thought. But this is not what no-self is. No denial of feeling or emotion is part of it.

So the premise is correct.

It's just that the 'self' being an illusion leads to false assumptions when not integrated. 

I think this highlights how dangerous some knowledge can be when not integrated. 

That is my understanding anyway - I could be wrong.

You could be right too. I love your assessment, it’s perfectly pointing to a clarity. Integration is the key.

 

 

[theleelajoker]

2 minutes ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Love the pic  

[Mellowmarsh]

@theleelajoker 💯🎯🫶

[theleelajoker]

11 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well, sure we are all one from a mystical perspective and all that, but I'm speaking from the normal perspective where you don't want to be hit with a hammer on the head, but you don't mind if they hit the stone with a hammer.

The self is an energetic structure as real as stone; it's stable and structured with mathematical precision at the genius level. The thing is, self structures are dynamic; they can change. But if you have a fear of heights, it's not enough to simply let go of the thought of terror; that's a lie. You'll have to practice climbing for five years intensively to retrain your brain. And if what you want is to not react if you see your five-year-old children being tortured, then it's probably impossible. These are the foundations of the self, and you have to see them as they are, so you can align that real self so that it's fluid and transparent, to the extent possible. 

If the idea: the self is just a thought, it's an irreal illusion created by human imagination, gets installed in you, you will get frustrated trying to silence the self creating a duality, the screen where the thoughts arises, without achieve nothing but a kind of anesthesia that have a price: castration of the alive flow that you are

OK focusing on the content of the discussion (bold barked by me). My experience and perspective as of now: 

1. Agreement to bold text: there is dynamic, it requires experience, and there are most likely limits
2. Thoughts are one part of the system, and focusing on thoughts ALONE are unlikely to create significant changes; cellular structure, body, nervous system etc is important, too. Examples for this:
   • When I fasten, or after sports, deep sleep my organism produces different thoughts effortlessly without intention for different thoughts
   • YOU CANNOT SIMPLY DECIDE WHAT TO BELIEVE: Think of the next election. What is your choice, which party, which political direction? You are convinced that THIS CHOICE is the best for society, country, yourself etc. Now decide to believe, with all your heart, that the opposite end of the political spectrum is the right choice. You can pretend, but my hypothesis is you won't truly believe this. Because your believes and values are shaped by experiences, and you need further experience to change that. Without that experiences, your "changed believe" is just shallow and your subconscious will always override it. You'll suffer because you create tension through inner conflict. 
3. You can still get more aware of your thoughts, and reduce ruminating, eliminate some negative thoughts structures, and make unconscious thought patterns more conscious so that they can be changed. 
4. The Self, however we want to define it, and talking about it, and getting rid of it or making it more transparent...this is still very tricky for me.

• One thing that make it tricky for me is the sharp increase I have in trans-personal experiences. For example, I now open a random thread about oranges in this forum. Then I go can call a friend of mine, and suddenly he tells me that he want's to buy an orange plantation  So that makes it hard for me to see where the "self" actually starts or ends, how it functions etc. 
• One other thing is context. So when eastern teachings are transferred to the west, I often had this feeling that this idea of "dissolve the self" has also cultural roots. Times were cruel, lots of war, famine, suppression, violence, inequality. So it's beneficial - for rulers and for the poor people - to reduce the self because there was not a lot of opportunity for positive expressions  (people's motive) and it's easier to control people that just accept their suffering instead of trying to change stuff (ruler's motive). It's different times now the west created a lot of room for expression of ourselves (although it could be a bit more healthy way of expressing in some areas)

Edited Monday at 07:51 AM by theleelajoker

[Natasha Tori Maru]

It does go further - and I think this is what Breakingthewall has realized and integrated:

In my experience with the truth non-dualists get the no-self thing slightly wrong - or I should say - it goes further.

There IS a unique part to each human - a human, distinct consciousness. This consciousness is fundamental. It is awareness in the pure sense. Pure existence. There is a Breakthewall consciousness, a Natasha consciousness etc. This is where I understand Breakthewall has seen the unique parts of each human that she has realized and integrated (again I could be wrong - could JUST be how I read it). This is completely separate to the self. But the self influences this unique, distinct consciousness we all have.

Thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, ideas, personal history, memory - all come after this - and this is where we experience the ego self, generated for survival. But this acts as an overlay onto the pure consciousness that we each are at the base. Which is just being, experience and awareness. This 'self' stops you experiencing reality in a pure sense. As an example: you walk down the street, and you are worried about work. You worry about being late and your boss being angry. But notice that this worry is stopping you from seeing the beauty of the light; the flowers coming in full bloom (spring!), the crunchy sound of your feet on the brambles, the cool, fresh air in your lungs. That beautiful experience is now totally absent from your experience because your ego self was busy engaged in the future. It wasn't focusing on the present. So the ego distracts you from realising these experiences - which are the pure experiences of a human. A human being. Literally being.

Where these 2 topics get minced together if you think thought is fundamental. 

And I get it - trying to force thoughts to stop is impossible. Which is repression and force. But when you integrate the realization the self is an illusion, you realise the thoughts are like a bad habit. Its easy to think the same thoughts. It's easy to repeat patterns. It takes no effort. What takes effort is trying to change your thoughts. Become aware of them. Train your focus to reality - not worry about the future or past. Just like a bad habit of eating junk food. You can train yourself to discipline thought though focus. Mediation.

What you eventually find is that thoughts begin to slow. They can slow so much they can stop. And then - BOOM - you are pure awareness. You notice all the beauty of life - you stop and smell the roses.

But this requires a lot of practice. Dedication. 

In addition to the above - the no self thing - well. Can you point to a self? If you are pure consciousness - not the body - but awareness - where is this self? Is a thought a thing? It is self-generated. SELF generated. It comes from the self. So if thoughts stop - where does the self go? Survival creates this self. It is needed for survival. But it is not fundamental - your unique consciousness IS.

Again, serious meditation will take you there. Self-enquiry. Serious questioning. Questioning EVERYTHING.

Hum a song, sing a song in your mind. Every note. Every word. The bridge - the chorus. Recall it in full. When you do this - can you think at the same time? Try to think and recall this song in your minds ear. You cannot. All the notes occupy your mind. 

If thought is fundamental - when you sung that song in your mind - and you stopped thoughts... did you (the self) just stop? Or is it something you create - just like the song? There is the illusion and the paradox. You certainly didn't stop! Or suddenly cease to exist. But you could still sense - you were still aware. But the self (the thinking, ego self) was temporarily gone. The illusion revealed.

Once contemplation and integration happen - you reach knowing. Truth.

Once you are in a state of knowing - you simply do. Because you know.

Know the nature of thyself.

Edited Monday at 11:16 AM by Natasha Tori Maru
Editing to add this is my current level of truth that has been revealed to me through meditation, contemplation, deconstruction and psychedelics

[UnbornTao]

 

[Breakingthewall]

5 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

YOU CANNOT SIMPLY DECIDE WHAT TO BELIEVE:

You can't because you are that belief, the emotion that happens, It's an expression of your entire energetic structure. If you attempt to observe your thoughts or beliefs as the immutable screen on which they appear, what you're doing is focusing on a perceiving center,. creating a duality, which is precisely the self that meditation attempts to dissolve

If you are one with your thoughts and emotional vibration, you become one with the flow of reality, which is taking the form of you having a certain thought. By doing so, the meaning of the thought is deactivated. The flow sees itself as flow, and the observer is the form that the flow is now taking, and clarity happens. You might think: So why did you behave emotionally before? These are automatic reactions of the energetic system that you are, gradually equalizing. Pretending to be perfectly equalized is absurd; you are what you are.

5 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Where the big issue comes is where no-self comes in - if not fully understood and integrated the natural conclusion is that no-self is

What means a self? There are many possible interpretations of what the self means. For me, self is the energetic structure that reality is currently taking on in the form of a body/mind system, which is emitting a constant energetic frequency. 

Maybe for you is the center, or the idea that you have of yourself as a social being. Those are expressions of the system that you are. Naming them illusion is meaningless in my opinion, they are real in its own dimension

 

6 hours ago, Mellowmarsh said:

Try not to be self defeating or self sabotaging, why doubt yourself when all you can do is express yourself

Maybe I should doubt more and be less arrogant, but I see clear , wrong or right, then I express in a way that could be irritating 

Edited Monday at 12:52 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

Anyway, from now on, I'm going to do my best not to get triggered or emotional. I understand that we all fall into narcissistic self-affirmation here, and I do it too. It's something that's essential to avoid, but there's a fine line between authentic expression with the intention of clarity and expression aimed at self-affirmation. No one is a pure saint, so let's all try to work together in the right direction 

[theleelajoker]

22 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Anyway, from now on, I'm going to do my best not to get triggered or emotional. I understand that we all fall into narcissistic self-affirmation here, and I do it too. It's something that's essential to avoid, but there's a fine line between authentic expression with the intention of clarity and expression aimed at self-affirmation. No one is a pure saint, so let's all try to work together in the right direction 

My take: Everyone doing his/her best. 

Sometimes it's just good to take a step back to see the same thing with fresh eyes 👀 

[Schizophonia]

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I have enough social life, the one that I have. Could be better and worse . I hope yours is wonderful 

Not enough ☹

Otherwise i probably wouldn't project on you.

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If I expose a point I've been contemplating deeply for hours, and your response is that I write that because I don't have a social life or my life is shit.

Your life is probably full and/or somehow satisfying ; I was just projecting a bit and seeing if it worked.
What you're projecting is more specific than that, namely the inclination to use spirituality and generally orient your life in an excessively "neurotic" manner (anti-human).

Which effectively is correlated with a poorer lifestyle etc, but it is a correlation it is not the subject in itself.

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You have to understand that in some cases there may be a reactive response. It's not optimal, but sometimes it's inevitable.

Yes, because I'm touching the structure, the ego.
So it's inevitably atavistically perceived as hostility.

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Sure, or maybe I'm retarded or anything, but the fact is that it's true that I feel enlightenment issue like a real vocation.

I'm not saying the opposite, I'm saying that there is a correspondence between "spiritual karma" and a scrupulous character.

The same goes for personal development, politic...

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I also did a lot of things. Now for example Im running a business quite risky where my future is in stake every day. 

Congratulation.

A business of what

18 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Look, I try to talk about a topic. This topic is interesting to me, really interesting. I contemplate it a lot, as deep as I can, then if someone comes with nonsense about personal thing I feel frustrated. I will try don't express that frustration 

You're posting a thread hoping people will add their own piece to the story.
My piece is to provide insight into why you see/generate this problem while others don't and see the opposite.
And the answer is the mirror; why spirituality is anti-human: because I am spirituality and I am anti-humanity.
This is in line with non-duality.

 

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

My take: Everyone doing his/her best. 

Sometimes it's just good to take a step back to see the same thing with fresh eyes 👀 

Sure , argues happens , it's normal. It's like pathetic get triggered but it's also normal. Every tense situation is an opportunity to see yourself and improve. See yourself is the key.