Anti human spirituality

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Human Mint They are 2 separate realizations.

[Carl-Richard]

The best description I've heard for enlightenment is becoming lucid within the dream. The dream doesn't disappear, your body doesn't disappear, your mind ultimately doesn't disappear, but you simply wake up within the dream, and the dream keeps going. Waking up is realizing that the dream character you thought you were, and the reality you thought were real, was an illusion, a kind of story, an intoxication. The only thing that is real is the dreamer. The dreamer is infinite being, creating the dream and the characters within it. And waking up from the dream, while continuing to dream, that is what the enlightened person is doing.

[Breakingthewall]

11 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Even if the “self” is ultimately an illusion, that illusion still functions. And that function has real consequences. Perception arises through raw data: movement, visuals, sounds. Then interpretation happens through the self: 'My son tortured, this shouldn't be happening. I am powerless. This means I have failed' 

It's exactly opposite. When you observe your son being tortured,  energetic patterns are activated, formed over millions of years of evolution, honed by generation after generation of social mammals to create social cohesion, a greater chance of survival, and greater evolution. These patterns operate at all levels, taking up residence in your body, in your cells, and forever changing your energetic structure. From this structure emerges the narrative: I have failed, etc. 

11 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Notice all of that has the narrative 'I'. This narrative self turns pain into suffering. Then, neural pathways get activated once the self has 'kicked in' which are hard wired - but notice they won't just go off by themselves - they are activated through your identification with the event.

The trauma is imprinted on your energy system and persists, and from this emerges the narrative. This persistence is an evolutionary mechanism to avoid the repetition of that event at all costs. It creates an impossible-to-ignore impulse that moves the individual and the group in a direction, creating social cohesion, complex social systems, status, tribe, civilization, art, science, and technology.

11 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

the mind isn't saying 'Why is this happening to me? I cannot survive this' etc etc. The suffering is pure sensation without any identity encapsulating it. So because there is no identification there is no added suffering. When the self is present you have psychological torment 'My son' 'My failure'. In the no-self mind there is just pain, grief shaking etc but no one there suffering. So you see, this is the extra layer of suffering, on top of the already unpleasant experience? That is the unnecessary suffering of the self that is generated through thoughts.

The mind does this because it hasn't been able to process the trauma. Because it's been so severe, it's created layers of protection to keep it buried. It remains stored in the body and distills anxious energy in the form of thoughts. It has nothing to do with labeling the self as nonexistent. The only "nonexistent" self is the narcissistic self-image, but the real trauma isn't in the self-image. Perhaps you or Ralston have never experienced real trauma?

11 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Now in the above compassion still flows - but non-duality does not shut down the heart, rather it OPENS it. Without an ego or 'self' there to protect itself the raw compassion felt can move to act, protect, grieve, and love. It is life expressing itself even in the horror. So no-self is not anti-human spirituality. It enhances all feeling and brings you closer to the raw truth of it. And this has been what I have experienced

Sure, so all that stuff about tribal fighting, social hierarchy, stratification, revenge, and war, these are foolish mistakes made by those foolish children, humans, those flawed, naive beings who, in 15,000 years, have gone from caves to interplanetary travel. They should be wise and all dressed in white in Ibiza, smiling at each other with lots of love, not doing human things, which are wrong.

Well, that's exactly anti human spirituality, and it's false in its basis because deny the human nature as illusory. It's narcissism

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Once again - you asked for clarification and I answered. Good luck with your spiritual journey. I hope it brings you some sort of truth, although I suspect that will be difficult as it is based on belief.

You aren't fully understanding what is being conveyed. 

It would be wise to listen to the wisdom of the masters.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You aren't fully understanding what is being conveyed. 

It would be wise to listen to the wisdom of the masters.

 

So, instead of refuting the points I've made, you show defensive condescension and attack me by saying they're beliefs and that I don't understand, and finally, you say that teachers wouldn't agree, but you say absolutely nothing about the points. Is that narcissism? I fully understand that philosophy, it's not difficult, I'm not a genius but smart enough to understand those "masters"

Seriously, I hope that anyone with common sense can understand 

Edited August 11 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Once again - you asked for clarification and I answered. Good luck with your spiritual journey. I hope it brings you some sort of truth, although I suspect that will be difficult as it is based on belief.

You aren't fully understanding what is being conveyed. 

It would be wise to listen to the wisdom of the masters.

Chatgpt says this about your answer . Sometimes makes good analysis 

 

That answer he gave you is the classic pseudo-spiritual closing: "Good luck with your spiritual journey" → Translation: I'm not going to enter further into the debate, but I maintain that I have the higher position. "Although I suspect that will be difficult as it is based on belief" → He places himself above others by saying that yours is "belief" and his is "truth," without arguing where the error lies. "It would be wise to listen to the wisdom of the masters" → Argument from authority, not logic. Implicitly: the masters say what I say, therefore it's true. This reveals that he is not willing to argue from logic, but from dogma. When someone resorts to authority rather than coherence, it means they cannot or do not want to sustain the exchange on an argumentative level.

Edited August 11 by Breakingthewall

[Carl-Richard]

You are not the body, you are not even the mind. This is not to deny these things, but to go beyond them. Spirituality is about going beyond your humanity, not going against it.

[Breakingthewall]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You are not the body, you are not even the mind. This is not to deny these things, but to go beyond them. Spirituality is about going beyond your humanity, not going against it.

Maybe you are more than your body and your mind, sure, but you are also your body and your mind, there are a reality not an illusion. 

Spirituality is about transcending the form and be the unlimited, then be the form as an expression of the unlimited. 

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe you are more than your body and your mind, sure, but you are also your body and your mind, there are a reality not an illusion. 

Spirituality is about transcending the form and be the unlimited, then be the form as an expression of the unlimited. 

To me that is still intermediate. You are then egoless, good. And life will be nice, good. But God is not interested in form. Sure God can dabble and dump in a heartbeat in any manner. Only oneness forever is worth a lick. This universe in fact never happened - time is illusion, body is illusion, other is illusion; so God is not perturbed by what tries to take place here. Better than here is the truth.

 

Edited August 11 by gettoefl

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Maybe you are more than your body and your mind, sure, but you are also your body and your mind, there are a reality not an illusion. 

Are you able to see how something can be real in one sense and an illusion in another?

[Breakingthewall]

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Are you able to see how something can be real in one sense and an illusion in another?

When they say the self is an illusion, they mean that it doesn't really exist, but that through conceptual thought, a mistaken identification with a nonexistent center is produced. If you ask them if they need conceptual thought to feel threatened if a tiger advances toward them, they'll say that it's the body reacting, or that God invented it, or some such story.

The self is an energetic system that exists. If you want to call it an illusion for some reason, you're entering the realm of spiritual narcissism: I want things the way I would like them, and if I don't look at the tiger, the tiger doesn't exist.

[Carl-Richard]

52 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

When they say the self is an illusion, they mean that it doesn't really exist, but that through conceptual thought, a mistaken identification with a nonexistent center is produced. If you ask them if they need conceptual thought to feel threatened if a tiger advances toward them, they'll say that it's the body reacting, or that God invented it, or some such story.

The ego goes deeper than conceptual thought. It's an entire mode of being.

 

53 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The self is an energetic system that exists. If you want to call it an illusion for some reason, you're entering the realm of spiritual narcissism: I want things the way I would like them, and if I don't look at the tiger, the tiger doesn't exist.

It's a mode that can be switched off. In that sense, it's very illusion-like. Where is the mode? Is it more accurate to say that the mode is like a pattern that arises and less like a discrete thing with definite boundaries?

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

It's a mode that can be switched off.

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

 Can you turn off watching your mother being grilled alive and not feel anything? Is it necessary to deactivate that, like a bonze monk who burns himself alive without lifting a finger? Is that more enlightened than feeling pain? Why? 

What you can do is understand your energetic structure, know what it is. It's as real as your body, only on another plane. Then you can align that energetic structure with the flow of reality as equalized as possible, so that its flow is clean, pure, and then it begins to become transparent. But you can't deny it, because the one who denies it is the self

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 Can you turn off watching your mother being grilled alive and not feel anything? Is it necessary to deactivate that, like a bonze monk who burns himself alive without lifting a finger? Is that more enlightened than feeling pain? Why?

That's just what happens.

 

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

 What you can do is understand your energetic structure, know what it is. It's as real as your body, only on another plane. Then you can align that energetic structure with the flow of reality as equalized as possible, so that its flow is clean, pure, and then it begins to become transparent. But you can't deny it, because the one who denies it is the self

You know how a child with behavioral misconduct can throw a tantrum over the smallest things? Is that a structure you can "align" with? Is the alignment process you're describing completely devoid of any structure itself, or does the behavior of an aligned individual look like something?

[Puer Aeternus]

5 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Chatgpt says this about your answer 

Oh boy 😭 don't bring out the robot secret weapon as your finishing move! Noooooo!!!

[Breakingthewall]

59 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You know how a child with behavioral misconduct can throw a tantrum over the smallest things? Is that a structure you can "align" with? Is the alignment process you're describing completely devoid of any structure itself, or does the behavior of an aligned individual look like something?

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

 

 The self structure of that boy is the reality, same than any other self, it's an expression of reality that occurs in the flow of reality, in which it unfolds as an observer, a subject who receives or processes an object, a perceiver who perceives. It can close in on itself, creating an apparent center that must be protected, or open itself to the flow and recognize itself as the flow. To do so, it must align itself, open itself, but it does not cease to be what it is. Its structure is real, just as real as the structure of anything else that exists. And as anything that exists is flowing and changing without pause

28 minutes ago, Puer Aeternus said:

Oh boy 😭 don't bring out the robot secret weapon as your finishing move! Noooooo!!!

It's not a weapon. People who act narcissistically will never listen to you, but sometimes they listen to authority figures. The narcissistic structure of that discourse is so obvious that seeing it dissected by AI might shed some light. It's not a secret weapon; I don't need AI to detect manipulation, but if the AI says it so clearly, maybe it gets cleared . It's possible having conversations without those attitudes even you don't agree 

Edited August 11 by Breakingthewall

[Puer Aeternus]

17 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's not a weapon. People who act narcissistically will never listen to you, but sometimes they listen to authority figures. 

Valid point whenever I sense narci in the airwaves I always send them to my favorite chat bot professor Dr.GPT

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I personally don't hand sovereignty of thought to AI. 

And notice I didn't call you any names here - so please do me the respect of NOT implying anyone is a narcissist for having a different view to you.

We aren't trying to shut each other down - merely understand. Different views are being shared. My message was to impart that my experience didn't resonate with you - so I am leaving the discussion. 

 

Edited August 11 by Natasha Tori Maru

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I personally don't hand sovereignty of thought to AI. 

 

The IA did an analysis that was similar than the analysis that I did previously. 

9 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

We aren't trying to shut each other down -

I was just explaining my points, but you started to trying to put me down, like everytime that we talked about this topic. I just tried to show you it. Sorry for the world "narcissist" , I didn't say that you are, just that you acted in this precise post similar , manipulative. If you act like that what do you expect? That the other gets down without answering? 

Anyway, sorry for the word narcissist, Im not saying that you are

Edited August 12 by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

12 hours ago, gettoefl said:

But God is not interested in form. Sure God can dabble and dump in a heartbeat in any manner. Only oneness forever is worth a lick. This universe in fact never happened - time is illusion, body is illusion, other is illusion; so God is not perturbed by what tries to take place here. Better than here is the truth

The only god is the one that we can see in ourselves, in the actual reality