Breakingthewall

Anti human spirituality

95 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Ishanga said:

There is no denying maya or illusion in a true spiritual system, it is just the system reveals maya too You, as well the point behind equanimity, peace and Blissful states being established is not the goal of the system either, its just the foundation.  Its much easier to realize Your UnLimitedness when in at the minimum Your in peaceful states of experience than being in Depressive or Anxious states, its pretty simple..

I understand your point , But the way I see it, when your psychological structure is anxiety, depression, and suffering, that's when you find the real motivation to break through the barriers, since there's no solution to your suffering. If there were, you'd apply that solution and remain there. So, what we're trying to do is formulate a spirituality that makes it possible for those who aren't suffering to suicidal levels to find the path to openness. What I see is that the existing formulations aren't correct; they fail on multiple points.

If we take Sadhguru as an example, he doesn't formulate an ontology to promote openess , but rather says that with the yogic practices he proposes, this can happen. I can't say otherwise because I don't know.

but I do believe that, for example, Buddhism or Advaita Vedanta don't point directly toward openness; at the end of their path, there's a wall. Their nonduality is dual. Buddhism proposes emptiness as the ultimate reality, and emptiness is just a form.

Advaita tells you that perceived reality is illusory, unreal. This is the most toxic of all, since the unreality of what is perceived implies a higher, real reality. If you internalize this ontology, you're trapped. It's not innocuous, another path that could resonate with you, etc. It's toxic, a closure.

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14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I understand your point , But the way I see it, when your psychological structure is anxiety, depression, and suffering, that's when you find the real motivation to break through the barriers, since there's no solution to your suffering. If there were, you'd apply that solution and remain there. So, what we're trying to do is formulate a spirituality that makes it possible for those who aren't suffering to suicidal levels to find the path to openness. What I see is that the existing formulations aren't correct; they fail on multiple points.

If we take Sadhguru as an example, he doesn't formulate an ontology to promote openess , but rather says that with the yogic practices he proposes, this can happen. I can't say otherwise because I don't know.

but I do believe that, for example, Buddhism or Advaita Vedanta don't point directly toward openness; at the end of their path, there's a wall. Their nonduality is dual. Buddhism proposes emptiness as the ultimate reality, and emptiness is just a form.

Advaita tells you that perceived reality is illusory, unreal. This is the most toxic of all, since the unreality of what is perceived implies a higher, real reality. If you internalize this ontology, you're trapped. It's not innocuous, another path that could resonate with you, etc. It's toxic, a closure.

Well this is the way it "Should" be, ppl should look at their suffering as a sign to change things, use it to motivate themselves, only a few do it this way, I think the majority mask their Suffering with Drugs, Alcohol, Sex, and other Addictions, so this is the problem with the Enlightenment thru Suffering path IMO..

First one has to Stabilize, if that is not there then no point in going Spiritual path.. It's like trying to talk About God or Spirituality when someone is starving hungry like in Gaza, it won't work at all, and one does not have to be in Gaza too be Suffering, lots are suffering in palaces with all the Food and Comforts one could ever desire, the the main problem is ppl are living on autopilot, they don't know what it means to be Human, what we are capable of and how this Human Mechanism works..


Karma Means "Life is my Making", I am 100% responsible for my Inner Experience. -Sadhguru..."I don''t want Your Dreams to come True, I want something to come true for You beyond anything You could dream of!!" - Sadhguru

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Mmartinez28 said:

@Breakingthewall so absolute truth has nothing to do with definitive conclusive. 

Absolute truth is what you are. It's the unlimited, and when you are one with the limitlessness you realize that you always have been that, but "knowing" that you are unlimited is not being unlimited, because there are limits that exists by default in human psyche and others that we build . The only way is the dissolution of those barriers and be without barriers. It's subtle because a barrier could be the fact of having an experience. Who is having what? Limits. 

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39 minutes ago, Ishanga said:

Well this is the way it "Should" be, ppl should look at their suffering as a sign to change things, use it to motivate themselves, only a few do it this way, I think the majority mask their Suffering with Drugs, Alcohol, Sex, and other Addictions, so this is the problem with the Enlightenment thru Suffering path IMO..

First one has to Stabilize, if that is not there then no point in going Spiritual path.. It's like trying to talk About God or Spirituality when someone is starving hungry like in Gaza, it won't work at all, and one does not have to be in Gaza too be Suffering, lots are suffering in palaces with all the Food and Comforts one could ever desire, the the main problem is ppl are living on autopilot, they don't know what it means to be Human, what we are capable of and how this Human Mechanism works..

Sure, I mean the people who have realized that they are in a trap and the anesthesia is going to lead them to hell. 

So those people read something about enlightenment, and something resonates deeply, an instinct that says: that's it. That's where you should focus. The problem is that then you start reading and getting informed, and well, it's all very mysterious and mystical and neo-Advaita, and since you don't know exactly what the point is, you end up confused, thinking that reality isn't real and that what's real is emptiness, and that if you stop thinking, all your problems will disappear because you're creating them with thought

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Discern for yourself what's realistic spirituality and what's fantasy . There are versions of spirituality which teach that happiness is unconditional or the very nature of being itself is happiness or bliss ..I find it hard to make sense of this if we test it against the actual world ..because obviously you can't be happy if you are starving or bleeding to death or swallowing sharp glass pieces in your throat... But some spiritual teachings say that God is nothingness .and that's true .if God is absolute and unchanging and eternal..then nothingness meets this criteria. 


 "When you get very serious about truth you accept your life situation exactly as it is. So much so that you aren't childishly sitting around wishing it were otherwise.If you were confined to a wheelchair you would just accept it as how reality is. Just as you now just accept that you are not a bird who can fly."

-Leo Gura. 

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I think the openness you describe will lead to a gradual dissolution of the human structure, and all the neurosis that comes with it. Some non dual people talk about how there’s natural change to the human structure that happens after enlightenment. So in the end it will lead to what spirituality talks about, the elimination of the human structure, at least to significant degree. Because the human structure is deeply flawed in the way that it causes a lot of suffering, almost any pleasure except sensory pleasure comes with attachment, so it has its backside, when someone is on vacation they’re afraid of having to go home. When someone is performing well they’re afraid of failing. Even the sensory pleasures that has not to do with self image has a backside: addiction. 
 

It’s wise to want to eliminate this structure. Because a lot of what you are , are your attachments. So to undo the attachments goes hand in hand with undoing what you are. It’s attacking the source of your suffering : you. 
 

It’s just that the approach fails. Because spirituality becomes another idea to get attached to, another identity, so it’s acting from the same structure you’re trying to dissolve. Unless it’s seen clearly it won’t be transcended. You need a kind of different approach, and the openness you talk about is an example of a different approach. That goes beyond the human structure. And it will lead to its undoing because there’s no longer energy directed into its maintenance 

Edited by Sugarcoat

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The human, as you are, before society gets its claws into you - is perfect as is. Being. 

YOU (so to speak) aren't flawed. 

You are basically talking about no self with a lot of complicated overlays 


Deal with the issue now, on your terms, in your control. Or the issue will deal with you, in ways you won't appreciate, and cannot control.

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@Breakingthewall so what exactly do you mean by any idea or view of consciousness like for example consciousness can zoom forever is an idea, that any idea like the one above is never the absolute truth in any case. 

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2 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I think the openness you describe will lead to a gradual dissolution of the human structure, and all the neurosis that comes with it. Some non dual people talk about how there’s natural change to the human structure that happens after enlightenment. So in the end it will lead to what spirituality talks about, the elimination of the human structure, at least to significant degree. Because the human structure is deeply flawed in the way that it causes a lot of suffering, almost any pleasure except sensory pleasure comes with attachment, so it has its backside, when someone is on vacation they’re afraid of having to go home. When someone is performing well they’re afraid of failing. Even the sensory pleasures that has not to do with self image has a backside: addiction. 
 

It’s wise to want to eliminate this structure. Because a lot of what you are , are your attachments. So to undo the attachments goes hand in hand with undoing what you are. It’s attacking the source of your suffering : you. 
 

It’s just that the approach fails. Because spirituality becomes another idea to get attached to, another identity, so it’s acting from the same structure you’re trying to dissolve. Unless it’s seen clearly it won’t be transcended. You need a kind of different approach, and the openness you talk about is an example of a different approach. That goes beyond the human structure. And it will lead to its undoing because there’s no longer energy directed into its maintenance 

Nothing can be done, without it being an illusion, about something that's not actually happening. Simply put. All you're describing there is not actually happening. It only appears to be happening to an observer. I'm not saying the body doesn't seem to speak or move or things aren't happening; what I'm saying is, it's not to or by anyone. So, the need for something to be done is subjective and subject/object related. There's none. It's all happening and appearing to itself by itself as energy in flow. The work being done on oneself is also the energy being the old self and transforming into the new. It's just seem to be different and appears different. It is also the tools used in the transformation; it is the practices and the processes. It's you and it's me. It's everything. It's done.


What you know leaves what you don't know and what you don't know is all there is. 

 

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Fact is however here IS suffering and death and there is freedom and eternity. Human is flawed and needs corrective measures and THAT done right is spirituality. You are proposing a false equivalence between here and there, like they are both good and natural and inevitable and everlasting. I am not sure. I know here is not so great. And I experienced better when here quit for a while.

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14 hours ago, Someone here said:

There are versions of spirituality which teach that happiness is unconditional or the very nature of being itself is happiness or bliss

I think that is possible, but extremely difficult. If you place yourself in a perspective in which you are the flow of existence, reality is peace, beauty and glory, but of course, then you find out that your brother has raped your daughter and automatically you are in the human perspective and you cannot get out of it because it is extremely magnetic.

 

 

14 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

I think the openness you describe will lead to a gradual dissolution of the human structure, and all the neurosis that comes with it. Some non dual people talk about how there’s natural change to the human structure that happens after enlightenment. So in the end it will lead to what spirituality talks about, the elimination of the human structure, at least to significant degree. Because the human structure is deeply flawed in the way that it causes a lot of suffering, almost any pleasure except sensory pleasure comes with attachment, so it has its backside, when someone is on vacation they’re afraid of having to go home. When someone is performing well they’re afraid of failing. Even the sensory pleasures that has not to do with self image has a backside: addiction. 
 

It’s wise to want to eliminate this structure. Because a lot of what you are , are your attachments. So to undo the attachments goes hand in hand with undoing what you are. It’s attacking the source of your suffering : you. 
 

It’s just that the approach fails. Because spirituality becomes another idea to get attached to, another identity, so it’s acting from the same structure you’re trying to dissolve. Unless it’s seen clearly it won’t be transcended. You need a kind of different approach, and the openness you talk about is an example of a different approach. That goes beyond the human structure. And it will lead to its undoing because there’s no longer energy directed into its maintenance 

I think that if you perceive yourself unlimited you can enjoy life without attachment. Unlimited doesn't mean that you perceive yourself as God, but rather as the incessant becoming, and beyond that, as the ultimate nature of that becoming. But I don't know to what extent it's possible to maintain that perspective when serious problems arise. What is certain is that, as you've said, if you build a life based on attachments, suffering is guaranteed. 

The human structure will always exist, it is necessary, but I would say that the idea is for it to be a useful structure that allows the greatest possible openness to the substance, the freest possible flow. A closed structure is the one that needs to assert itself, since it takes center stage. You are more the structure than the flow, and in this way you become attached, bitter, full of fear and suffering 

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12 hours ago, Mmartinez28 said:

@Breakingthewall so what exactly do you mean by any idea or view of consciousness like for example consciousness can zoom forever is an idea, that any idea like the one above is never the absolute truth in any case. 

It's not the absolute truth because it's an idea, and as such, it is relative. The idea that consciousness can extend eternally is opposed to the idea that it has an end. It is a mental structure that you are creating now. Absolute truth is not an idea; it is the total opening to what you are. It is more of an action than an idea.

You are closed in your mind. At a given moment, you fully open your framework, your energetic configuration that defines you, and the whole manifests. Your ultimate nature, the unlimited openness that is the source of flow, and you recognize yourself as the total. Then you return to your structured reality and from there, you think that consciousness will most likely be eternal and all that.

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14 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The human, as you are, before society gets its claws into you - is perfect as is. Being. 

YOU (so to speak) aren't flawed. 

You are basically talking about no self with a lot of complicated overlays 

No, it's a big difference.

When you are a child, you flow freely because your structure is not formed. The substance of reality is free within you. You live, and by living, you know everything: you are. But reality has paths, structures, forms, and you will inevitably create a framework that will contain the vital flow. To contain it, there are energetic and emotional barriers that are innate and impossible to ignore.

So, once you are trapped in your prison, as we all are, you can no longer return to the baby state by erasing the self, because the self is there, more solid than a rock. You have to take a step beyond the baby; you have to open yourself to the total. The baby is not open to the total; it flows freely, but at no point does the bottomless that lives open up within it.

However, you, as an adult, have to take that step because otherwise your structure will remain exactly as solid, no matter how much you adopt the ideal of no self and try to minimize the self. You can't because you, the one who attempts that, is precisely the self.

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1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

Fact is however here IS suffering and death and there is freedom and eternity. Human is flawed and needs corrective measures and THAT done right is spirituality. You are proposing a false equivalence between here and there, like they are both good and natural and inevitable and everlasting. I am not sure. I know here is not so great. And I experienced better when here quit for a while.

It's inevitable to think this way, and if any of us are told we have a neurological disease or that we're going to be sold as slaves in Rome, we will suffer enormously. But the point is that this is the flow of reality.

Enlightenment isn't knowing that there's another, better reality, but rather being one with the substance of this reality, which is the reality. The content can be crap from the conditioned perspective, and in fact, it almost always is. But it's about being able to step out of that perspective and place yourself in the substance right now, without bias toward what appears.

Bias completely removes you from the open perspective. It's totally inevitable, and saying otherwise is naive. But if you manage to place yourself at certain moments in a perspective free of bias, little by little you align yourself with the flow. It's not easy work at all; in fact, it's extremely difficult. But we are evolving humans; nothing is impossible

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