Anti human spirituality

[Breakingthewall]

 

 

Most of the spirituality It is based on the denial of human nature.  The mind is seen as a prison, desire as suffering, and the ego as the great enemy. This view, even when disguised as non-duality, is rooted in a radical dualism: the real versus the illusory, the pure versus the corrupt, the divine versus the human.

The result is a deeply unnatural spirituality. The human being is asked to renounce himself, to nullify himself, to stop being what he is . to cut off all vital direction, every impulse, every expression. At its core, this view conveys the idea that reality has made a mistake , the human being, and that this mistake must be corrected through effort, discipline, and denial. The basis of spirituality usually is the elimination of the ego. Seems that being human is wrong, then we should point to be a plant, that "just be". This is achieved erasing the "falsehood", that is the ego mind. Have the birds ego? Aren't they perfect? Then, why aren't you a bird. Then, we find people trying to be a egoless bird with the giant effort of their ego to stop being humans. They will say: I'm enlightened, now there is not suffering. Well, no, enlightenment happened, and there is nobody here, because who was here was an illusion. It's difficult to be more controller.

this vision is false. There is no mistake in human nature, as it's an expression of the reality. The human structure is not to be eliminated, but understood and opened. What the human being needs is not to erase himself, but to open fully to what is. To understand that his form, with all its nuances, is part of the infinite flow. The ego does not need to be killed , it needs to be seen. The mind does not need to be crushed, it need to be open. Desire doesn't need to be erased, must to be aligned.

True openness is not about becoming a plant. It is about living without a mask, from within the structure we are, but open to what has no bottom. It means integrating complexity, desire, conflict, and the creative power that is the human being, and allowing it all to dissolve into something vaster, be one with the flow.

Or maybe do you think that reality made a mistake and YOU have to solve it?

Edited Saturday at 04:48 PM by Breakingthewall

[jimwell]

30 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

There is no mistake in human nature, as it's an expression of the reality

Yes, it is an expression of reality, hence perfect in a way. But from a different perspective, it's very  limited and erroneous.

 

30 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The human structure is not to be eliminated, but understood and opened.

And to be transcended. To transcend is not to exclude it but to honor and integrate it, and then go beyond it. This is how spirituality should be.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, jimwell said:

And to be transcended. To transcend is not to exclude it but to honor and integrate it, and then go beyond it. This is how spirituality should be.

How could be transcended? It's impossible transcend what you are, you could change.

1 hour ago, jimwell said:

But from a different perspective, it's very  limited and erroneous

Imo thinking that it's erroneous is the mistake. Spiritual people say what you said about honoring, but what they really want is to stop being human because it involves suffering. The problem, imo, is that the most obvious way to do this is to eliminate any attachment. Without attachment, you don't suffer. But the underlying reality is different: you're trying something for a selfish reason, to stop suffering.

Just a reflection, lately I ve the feeling that spirituality is wrong, like a mistake that is very wrongly formulated from the beginning. But of course, maybe the mistake is mine

Edited Saturday at 06:28 PM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

15 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

How could be transcended? It's impossible transcend what you are, you could change.

Imo thinking that it's erroneous is the mistake. Spiritual people say what you said about honoring, but what they really want is to stop being human because it involves suffering. The problem, imo, is that the most obvious way to do this is to eliminate any attachment. Without attachment, you don't suffer. But the underlying reality is different: you're trying something for a selfish reason, to stop suffering.

Just a reflection, lately I ve the feeling that spirituality is wrong, like a mistake that is very wrongly formulated from the beginning. But of course, maybe the mistake is mine

Suffering is being what you're not. Why suffer this indignity? Is there any joy or benefit in relativity? You strayed in to this realm needlessly. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

Suffering is being what you're not. Why suffer this indignity?

Denying the reality usually doesn't work, gets you in a dual psychological reality that's not far from psychosis. It's a kind of narcissism that denies reality in favor of another reality more convenient to the person's emotional system. The only way is the total acceptance of reality; only then does openness occur.

What I was trying to communicate in the post is that spirituality is denial; it denies the ego as false, and thus encloses the individual in a psychotic duality that they perceive as enlightenment and they more or less believe it, blocking them from all possible directions

Edited Sunday at 11:40 AM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Denying the reality usually doesn't work, gets you in a dual psychological reality that's not far from psychosis. It's a kind of narcissism that denies reality in favor of another reality more convenient to the person's emotional system. The only way is the total acceptance of reality; only then does openness occur.

What I was trying to communicate in the post is that spirituality is denial; it denies the ego as false, and thus encloses the individual in a psychotic duality that they perceive as enlightenment and they more or less believe it, blocking them from all possible directions

We are denying the absolute each moment in favor of a stunted existence right? Yes we need to admit the absolute. It's our nature and destiny. And we don't deny the relative. This creates resistance and reinforcement. All one need do is give up judging and reacting. This creates the opening for the absolute. 

[Schizophonia]

@Breakingthewall Yes but be aware it's because you mirror them that you see them and compulsively talk about them.

There are many reasons why people approach religion, you are projecting yours which is basically neurotic regression, that is to say a way of functioning, of expending one's energy, which is supposed to protect against castration (being physically injured, shocked, humiliated etc.; being amputated of something)

And I in turn mirror you, both on the excessive neurotic mechanism, and on the inclination to projection in this context; that's why i compulsively want to respond to you among all the stuffs i can do.

We're always stuck on a forum rather than being happy, having lots of friends, doing lots of activities, having a career, or simply studying spirituality in a particularly serious way (which will probably include not spending much time on a forum); there's no cheating, we're here.

 

👺

[Ishanga]

Spirituality is not wrong, its just misinterpreted and used wrongly as most things are today, everything that is created that is empowering for a Human Being or all Life, eventually when it gets organized and mass produced or shared gets corrupted, because most human beings are corrupted in some way or form.

What is Human Nature anyways? Most of it is Karma passed along thru the lifetimes and the present day conditioning that is promoted in everything that our Culture produces..

True Spirituality does not deny anything, it just tells You that You are not this thing You are cling to, the thing that is causing you Pain or Joy, Love or Hate, Success or Failure, rather it says it is just a game, and that You are in control of it, but its a matter of How Conscious/Unconscious You are of this process and that there is more Potential within You to not let it affect You current State unless You want it too...

[Breakingthewall]

19 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

Yes but be aware it's because you mirror them that you see them and compulsively talk about them.

On 3/8/2025 at 11:57 AM, gettoefl said:

 

On 3/8/2025 at 11:57 AM, gettoefl said:

 

Sure, because i have those ideas in my unconscious, I've read Spirituality like everyone else here, and when I did, I thought: This is the truth! Then it penetrates your mental structure. Since I want total freedom and openness, I see ideas that close people off as enemies, and perhaps that's why I give them such neurotic importance.

19 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

We're always stuck on a forum rather than being happy, having lots of friends, doing lots of activities, having a career, or simply studying spirituality in a particularly serious way (which will probably include not spending much time on a forum); there's no cheating, we're here

Not so, Im in the subway now full of people going to an appointment, I'm all time in the street, but sometimes I stop a while to write. But in my mind The gears are turning all the time, seeking the cleanest structure, trying to align, it's inevitable. Everyone has their own hobbies. I haven't seen a movie, a TV series, or a novel in years. I'm interested in reality, so I can't avoid a certain vehemence at times, but I'll try to avoid talking against Ralston or any master 

Edited yesterday at 12:17 PM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

18 hours ago, Ishanga said:

Spirituality is not wrong, its just misinterpreted and used wrongly as most things are today, everything that is created that is empowering for a Human Being or all Life, eventually when it gets organized and mass produced or shared gets corrupted, because most human beings are corrupted in some way or form.

Maybe it is wrong . It's a possibility. If we were back in the days of the Aztecs and I were to say to you, "I don't see the point of the sun devouring the Earth if we don't sacrifice those people." it's a very stupid comparison I know. But let's see, what we're looking for isn't empowerment, or if we are, it shouldn't be in spirituality. We're looking to open our minds and our beings to the totality. So, certain ideas may be exactly the opposite of what fosters that openness

18 hours ago, Ishanga said:

True Spirituality does not deny anything, it just tells You that You are not this thing You are cling to, the thing that is causing you Pain or Joy, Love or Hate, Success or Failure, rather it says it is just a game, and that You are in control of it,

Those are ideas that could be useful to feel better, but maybe a hindrance for the real openess 

For example, the idea: you are in control of it. 

Or: this is just a game

Or: you are not this thing you are cling to.

Seems very innocent ideas, but maybe they are ideas that closes you, because they are subtle denying this experience, like: well, my life imaginary, then if I stop thinking, everything will be perfect because everything is a mental illusion. It's not real. It's a duality. 

This idea could be scapism. It's not a good idea scaping, because closes you to the real thing. The word "illusion" is toxic to me

Im not claiming that I know the "truth", I'm just trying to make a mental frame that allows the openess. And what is see is that those ideas close

Edited yesterday at 12:18 PM by Breakingthewall

[Princess Arabia]

It's not that it's anti-human, where did this term "human" come from. What is it. You have labeled yourself human because everybody else around you has done the same, yet you defend it as if it's truth or a known fact. I'm not speaking of human characteristics or traits or personalities, etc, I'm specifically referring to the word itself. Human. What is that, without just describing how you see humans to be. All you can do is just that. Why not call it "pencil", "potato", no, the difference is in the distinction and category, it's a label and we've given it meaning and slapped on a purpose. Yet you defend it so, seem so attached to that identity, yet you seek openness and speak on becoming unlimited and all that jazz, yet you insist on being something else.

This is not a denial of humanity, it's a confirmation of what is. What is, is just that, what is; with no labels, meaning, purpose, distinction or intention. The human/observer/sense of self/individual/person, is the one that has seemingly slapped all those things unto what is and now it tries to undo that by trying to become....become something other than what is. It calls itself something but wants to be something else. 

This isn't about anti-human spirituality, it's about the flaws of human-spirituality and that's the hindrance; no human and everything is as you speak of in regards to the natural flow and openness to what is already. Take that sense away and all is perfect.

Can't you see what you've done. You've put a label on yourself, told yourself what you are, attached yourself to that label, defend that label but in the same breath want to be with the cosmos and break the record by turning a human into an elephant. (analogy here), but it's just what you're trying to accomplish. You keep saying it's hard and might have accomplished some effects through psychedelics but it's an impossible feat. Why, because there's no true becoming....no true transcending,,,no true ...."ingings" of any kind, that's all the dream of separation which is not really happening in the first place.

The human/person/individual is the most unnatural thing in this existence, infact, it is it's own existence/reality/dream. Everything else is natural but the human. The one that senses itself to be separate. It's so unnatural it has to practice and process it's way into being. It wants to stay still and silent and seeks for peace and happiness. It just cannot stand itself, how unnatural it is. Yet you insist on being that. 

I'm not saying the "thing" we see and believe to be human doesn't exist, yes it does, but it's a part of nature itself, the body that is and all it's workings but without the human part, without the one inside, without that sense, it believes to be there but it isn't. That's the illusion/dream that's the unnatural part, without that all is just simply what is and no need for anything to be done. There's no need for that sense to even change, as that's also nature/this/absolute appearing as that but it is a very annoying and disruptive appearance and just what also is this.

Also, there's nothing natural about Spirituality, it's either everything or nothing. In the sense of it being man-made, concepts, ideas and stories, there's nothing natural about that.

Edited yesterday at 01:44 PM by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

It's not that the ego is false and it's being denied, it just simply does not exist. Nothing exists. Exist means to stand out and nothing stands out. It's all nothing appearing and nothing is everything so there is really no existence but the one the dream has created for itself including trying to hold unto itself as being human. It always loses this battle as we can see what happens "in the end" because it was never there to begin with.

[Ishanga]

41 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

It's not that the ego is false and it's being denied, it just simply does not exist. Nothing exists. Exist means to stand out and nothing stands out. It's all nothing appearing and nothing is everything so there is really no existence but the one the dream has created for itself including trying to hold unto itself as being human. It always loses this battle as we can see what happens "in the end" because it was never there to begin with.

There is a concept called Wu Wei in Traditional Daoism, it basically means Non Doing.. Sadhguru talks about this allot too, one method he promotes to use is putting yourself in a room, no tv, no computer, no phone, no books, and You just sit there, within a few hours he says You will find out what the problems are in your life, the mind will be exposed...

So Non Doing is a path onto itself, Non Doing relates to Nothing is Happing, No One is here, which in Absolute Terms means we are all One, Everything is Complete, if everything is One and Complete then what is there to Do and how is there One to Do anything? 

Problem is most are very identified and caught up in Body and Mind and all the unconscious Activity/Actions taking place, they have to deal with that first, before going the Non Doing, Nothing is Here, No One is here becomes available to them, some may have it naturally but I think most do not..

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

It's not that the ego is false and it's being denied, it just simply does not exist. Nothing exists. Exist means to stand out and nothing stands out. It's all nothing appearing and nothing is everything so there is really no existence but the one the dream has created for itself including trying to hold unto itself as being human. It always loses this battle as we can see what happens "in the end" because it was never there to begin with.

I think there's something we should all see clearly: any definition we make of reality is merely a conceptual framework we use to make opening up to our total nature easy, or as easy as possible. Any definition is, by definition, incorrect because it occurs within reality and is structured by contrasting one idea with another. "Nothing" has meaning in contrast to something else, so saying that reality is nothing implies that there is something.

The question would be: does internalizing the idea that reality is nothing cause your total nature to open up within you? You should admit that you are, there are sensations, thoughts, etc. Then, are you limited or unlimited? 

I'll tell you the conceptual framework that works for me: reality is an open relational system. 

This allows (makes it possible, not automatically but possible) that the usual limitation that is my state by default can opens, then the total is revealed. The total could be described simply as absence of limitations, but this is what I am as ultimate nature, this is not an idea but a description of a reality 

Edited 23 hours ago by Breakingthewall

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall The problem is, you don't know who or what you are. You know what you've learned, how you were raised, what you've experienced. A conglomeration of various stories and narratives that make up our persona, dressed in biological attire.
By seriously engaging in various demanding practices, you can convince yourself that existing in a human body with a very, very limited intake of food and water, with a practically deactivated libido, is not only possible but offers a completely different insight into the nature of existence—even in this extremely limited dimension, that is in our collective experience.
You'll discover, for example, the self-repairing abilities of the human body when undisturbed. And much, much more. I assure you. It may seem anti human, but... it is actually our future. Someday😉😊

[Kuba Powiertowski]

@Breakingthewall It could be compared to this: you're sitting in a supercar equipped with cutting-edge technology, and you're harnessing horses to pull you like a cart. We haven't even scratched the surface of this human avatar's true potential.

[Princess Arabia]

59 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

"Nothing" has meaning in contrast to something else, so saying that reality is nothing implies that there is something.

Yes, and that something is this fullness, vibrancy that we call life, but it's not actually anything, it is everything, nothing being everything BUT IT'S EMPTY. Nothing is not what the mind interprets as nothing, it's a kind of something but with no qualities, boundless, unlimited and free. 

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

The question would be: does internalizing the idea that reality is nothing cause your total nature to open up within you? You should admit that you are, there are sensations, thoughts, etc. Then, are you limited or unlimited? 

There is no real internalizing of an idea that reality is nothing. Nothing is what's speaking and being this idea, just as it's speaking and being what you're speaking about. Only a nothing can be all that and why it's free and liberated from bounds, constraints, ideas and concepts because it is all those things. Nothing is everything and everything is nothing. There's nothing here that needs to admit to that because it's not happening, there's noone here that anything is happening to and no one thats limited or unlimited already, there just is no one and limited and unlimited is nothing being that.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Kuba Powiertowski said:

@Breakingthewall It could be compared to this: you're sitting in a supercar equipped with cutting-edge technology, and you're harnessing horses to pull you like a cart. We haven't even scratched the surface of this human avatar's true potential.

Agree, but now the starting point, or let's say, the next evolutionary step to access, is the shift from a limited perspective to an unlimited or enlightened one. This is a reality you can access right now and that will likely be common in the future. Until now, the limited perspective has been the most optimal structure and the one that human reality has adopted to evolve to the maximum.

We are now facing a crisis in which human reality cannot be sustained on these foundations. We are treading on empty ground, and our impulse begins to point in the only possible direction: total openness, the true perception of the living flow of reality, being one with it. This has so far only been formulated vaguely by sages who lived in times when the tribal was absolutely necessary and where practically no one would share their impulse. But now the human context starts to achieve a critical mass of fission, the latent but still hidden nihilism and meaninglessness will erupt like a volcano. The welfare and Netflix society will stare death and the absolute meaninglessness of its reality in the face and collapse. From this collapse, a new, truly human dimension may be born.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

is nothing being that.

If nothing is being, then why you call it nothing? Nothing is absence of anything, then if it's being, there is not that total absence, it's potential of being. It's the same if it's not material or anything, it's a possibility, then the idea "nothing" doesn't fit imo