Reality vs. Consciousness (Chicken-Egg Problem)

[Sugarcoat]

20 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I don't think so, when observing, it seems that reality tends toward expansion, and in this tendency, moments of dissonance occur until they equalize. It seems that everything is cyclical and restarts from an energetic imprint. This is speculation. You could call it mental masturbation or whatever, but that's what it seems like when observing.

Maybe im boring you with my ridiculous torture questions sorry i just can’t help thinking about suffering

Edited Saturday at 11:01 AM by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

24 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Another speculation: maybe if you achieve the absolute perspective in this cycle that perspective don't dissapear after death/restart. It seems so when that happens 

So you mean if you get enlightened you’ll be enlightened forever?

[Breakingthewall]

32 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

So you mean if you get enlightened you’ll be enlightened forever?

I don't know, maybe things doesn't work like that, but maybe it's possible to see deeper, let's see. Imo if all the barriers are dissolved , a lot of possibilities can be perceived. But for now I can break the barriers just for some moments and probably not totally . 

 

38 minutes ago, Sugarcoat said:

Maybe im boring you with my ridiculous torture questions sorry i just can’t help thinking about suffering

No they are very important questions that all of us do, suffering is a real challenge, and it exist, it's everywhere 

Edited Saturday at 11:38 AM by Breakingthewall

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Sugarcoat said:

Maybe im boring you with my ridiculous torture questions sorry i just can’t help thinking about suffering

I'll give you an example: the Assyrians were very son of a bitch people. They had a torture system where they would put a guy in a box, and only his head and hands would come out. They would leave him in the countryside with two guards who would force him to eat and drink. Then the insects would arrive, and after a few days, tens of thousands of them would devour him. The idea was to keep him alive for a month being devoured by insects 

Well, this horrible shit, being open to the total is infinitely better than being in your house in a city, isolated, and surrounded by energetic walls that isolate you until you die of old age.

Edited Saturday at 06:02 PM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

Form is one-massive-eff-up, in case you have not yet noticed in your lifetimes of suffering!

Consciousness likewise is a descent into madness and badness, a wholly retarded hamstrung state.

Suffering is God's mess-up, God's mulligan, God's misadventure.

God doesn't want you here in this hell and you can exit any time.

That's why we term it an illusion; it is nothing compared to what's available right now

and God long since washed its hands of this insanity even if you are still clinging to the prospect of a nice dream.

God is certainly allowed this mistake and I am that bless me.

The difference between me and the omniscient God is its mistakes are one and done while mine are stubbornness to the bone.

One day I will definitely be a contender as the famous movie line reminds.

For sure God is allowed an egregious experiment since God is indeed every avenue and every outcome.

However unlike me, it tries stuff and then lives by once bitten twice shy.

1st law of God: All fuck-ups are finite and fixable and forever forsaken.

Which is why - news flash -  the universe is a huge ticking time bomb careening towards annihilation.

So best to wake tf up and get real.

(The book The Disappearance of the Universe echoes these musings for those who have read it.)

Edited Saturday at 04:29 PM by gettoefl

[Sugarcoat]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well, this horrible shit, being open to the total is infinitely better than being in your house in a city, isolated, and surrounded by energetic walls that isolate you until you die of old age.

The highest goal

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

Suffering is God's mess-up, God's mulligan, God's misadventure.

God doesn't want you here in this hell and you can exit any time.

If we want to open ourself to the absolute, we have to kiss Kali, the goddess of destruction, open your heart to her.

Kali is the living form of the bottomless. It is the aspect of reality that breaks down structures, because unlimited openness does not tolerate confinement. Where the self tries to assert itself, Kali cuts through it. Not to negate form, but to liberate its essence. 

Kali is wild, as the existence, dance of creation and destruction without mercy, if we deny the destruction and suffering, we are closed to the unfathomable. Form is yin and yang, and it's impossible that there is no form. No choice. 

Edited Saturday at 05:11 PM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

46 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

If we want to open ourself to the absolute, we have to kiss Kali, the goddess of destruction, open your heart to her.

Kali is the living form of the bottomless. It is the aspect of reality that breaks down structures, because unlimited openness does not tolerate confinement. Where the self tries to assert itself, Kali cuts through it. Not to negate form, but to liberate its essence. 

Kali is wild, as the existence, dance of creation and destruction without mercy, if we deny the destruction and suffering, we are closed to the unfathomable. Form is yin and yang, and it's impossible that there is no form. No choice. 

I suggest you to consider that God has no interest in the corruptible and the decaying. Why would it? Form is an attempt at escape. Separation is impossible except in a wild imagination. Why prefer a lower state to a higher state? Death is not real. So embrace life. And let's skip out of this silliness.

[Breakingthewall]

43 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

I suggest you to consider that God has no interest in the corruptible and the decaying. Why would it? Form is an attempt at escape. Separation is impossible except in a wild imagination. Why prefer a lower state to a higher state? Death is not real. So embrace life. And let's skip out of this silliness.

God isn't an entity that decides things; it's an unfathomable hole from which existence springs. Forms are created and destroyed in an infinite dance. So there are two options: either you dance aligned with the flow and open to it's depth, or misaligned and closed. But you'll dance anyway.

Edited Saturday at 06:44 PM by Breakingthewall

[gettoefl]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

God isn't an entity that decides things; it's an unfathomable hole from which existence springs. Forms are created and destroyed in an infinite dance. So there are two options: either you dance aligned with the flow and open to it's depth, or misaligned and closed. But you'll dance anyway.

Would you not agree from the absolute perspective that form is a distinct choice? And of course a choice needs a chooser right? The absolute need not opt for form since to deny it such power would place a limit. Form is suffering, a most ill-advised choice no? So dance all you please but one day you will have had enough.

[Xonas Pitfall]

15 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Would you not agree from the absolute perspective that form is a distinct choice? And of course a choice needs a chooser right? The absolute need not opt for form since to deny it such power would place a limit. Form is suffering, a most ill-advised choice no? So dance all you please but one day you will have had enough.

Nope! It's not a choice; it's a tautology. Basically, it's infinity (all), and it cannot be anything but all. It must be, and include all because it is all. And in order to be all, it has to be both finite and infinite. That’s really all. It didn’t 'choose' anything, it just had to be everything from an absolute perspective. Choice implies an inherent preference for one thing over another, which can only occur from a non-dual, finite perspective.

 

[Inliytened1]

@Xonas Pitfall btw you get the vote for coolest name on the forum.  Thoughts on my response?

Edited Saturday at 07:42 PM by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

44 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Would you not agree from the absolute perspective that form is a distinct choice? And of course a choice needs a chooser right? The absolute need not opt for form since to deny it such power would place a limit. Form is suffering, a most ill-advised choice no? So dance all you please but one day you will have had enough.

If there is no form, there is nothing, and in the absence of limits, form will eventually arise again. So, there will always be form. But form doesn't always have to be suffering. There are infinite possibilities. The most complex thing we know is the human form, which is quite suffering. But there may be other, less dense forms, dimensions that we literally cannot imagine.

Furthermore, any other life form other than human is considerably less suffering. If you're a bird, for example, everything is perfect 90% of the time. With humans, the mental dimension arises, the ego, etc., and we already know that it's crazy, but that's not all there is to it. Perhaps it's just a temporary form. I would say that we have to give it our all here. Then, who knows?

[Xonas Pitfall]

20 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Xonas Pitfall btw you get the vote for coolest name on the forum.  Thoughts on my response?

Thank you very much! It's designed to have very little to no meaning whatsoever. I like creating my usernames from,̵̩͓̊̈̌͒̑͛͒́̄̍̅̐̚͘͠ ̷̢̺̳̣̜̪̦̻͖̱̂͆̉̋͝͠ư̷̰̘͕̋̐̀̈́̔͆͂̄̓̔̈́͑͠n̷̨̡͕̲̤̖̪͇̙̉̆͐̋̍̅̚d̸̯͈͎̭̩̫̍̃̋̿̐́͑͐̋e̵̛͓̒̑͒̍͛f̴̢̨̮͚̗͍̺̱̫͕̥͒̇̌̓̊̓̅͘͜͠i̸͇̾̑͛̌͒̆͐̊͝n̸̡͖̖͎̺͓̘͈̟͇̠͚̠̞̬̿̽̃̎̈́̌́̌̚e̷̬̫͚̠̪͙̞̓̈̈ͅd̴̻̠̬̠̱̺̟̳͑̆͂̒̿̓̆͋͗͝͝ strings by humming random patterns as they come to me (perhaps a reference to Unfiltered Infinity? ).

And for the answer...
I’m very open to that. I probably should just do more trips and keep contemplating during them, as you suggested!

I think the issue is that I still have some lingering 'otherness/materialism/separate reality from the mind' arguments in my brain that I can’t seem to deconstruct. I keep thinking: "Sure, I can conceptually and even experientially understand how the mind works, and how it uses concepts and experiences to define infinity, beauty, God, oneness, and the reality it’s perceiving." But I think the fact that I cannot truly control reality in both my waking and higher consciousness states makes me believe there is 'otherness' independent of my mind, with properties and processes I can never know. And this whole concept of God is just the ultimate way my mind can understand itself and ponder on itself, but the actual source, or the Creator, who is able to mold, spawn, and twist reality, is far different from what I could ever imagine.

The best way I can describe it is: There’s reality, then there’s my mind, which evolved from that reality into consciousness to try and understand how reality functions. Sure, my mind is trying to understand reality, and it has plenty of infinite properties, processes, concepts like Infinity, God, and Solipsism, and psychedelic experiences it can create and explore, which is fascinating. But who’s claiming that it’s what created that reality, or is that reality? That's a huge assumption to make. I don’t know if I’m making sense.

Leo’s post about being able to manifest a unicorn from pure thought and consciousness was curious to me, but I’ve never really experienced that, nor seen anyone actually do it, just claim it. The closest I’ve ever heard of it is Tesla and how he created his inventions, but even then, he still had to go through a process of materializing those creations. It’s not like it just poofed in front of him for all eternity. And also, this idea that the only present moment is the actual starting point of creation, and from there, I create stories to make sense of it, feels very weird. I had some psychedelic experiences that denied this idea, but it faded sadly. I guess I’ll just keep updating on the forum as I keep breaking my mind, teehee  . Thank you!

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

If there is no form, there is nothing, and in the absence of limits, form will eventually arise again. So, there will always be form. But form doesn't always have to be suffering. There are infinite possibilities. The most complex thing we know is the human form, which is quite suffering. But there may be other, less dense forms, dimensions that we literally cannot imagine.

Furthermore, any other life form other than human is considerably less suffering. If you're a bird, for example, everything is perfect 90% of the time. With humans, the mental dimension arises, the ego, etc., and we already know that it's crazy, but that's not all there is to it. Perhaps it's just a temporary form. I would say that we have to give it our all here. Then, who knows?

Form is the same as finitude is the same as flawed is the same as fearful and that to me is about as incongruous to the absolute perfection as can be. Certainly the absolute is happy to yield to such suffering states but seems this would not be the norm but an anomaly, a hypothetical hallucination or a bad nightmare if you will. Everything is possible but happiness is the default in contrast to what one gets here.

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Thank you very much! It's designed to have very little to no meaning whatsoever. I like creating my usernames from,̵̩͓̊̈̌͒̑͛͒́̄̍̅̐̚͘͠ ̷̢̺̳̣̜̪̦̻͖̱̂͆̉̋͝͠ư̷̰̘͕̋̐̀̈́̔͆͂̄̓̔̈́͑͠n̷̨̡͕̲̤̖̪͇̙̉̆͐̋̍̅̚d̸̯͈͎̭̩̫̍̃̋̿̐́͑͐̋e̵̛͓̒̑͒̍͛f̴̢̨̮͚̗͍̺̱̫͕̥͒̇̌̓̊̓̅͘͜͠i̸͇̾̑͛̌͒̆͐̊͝n̸̡͖̖͎̺͓̘͈̟͇̠͚̠̞̬̿̽̃̎̈́̌́̌̚e̷̬̫͚̠̪͙̞̓̈̈ͅd̴̻̠̬̠̱̺̟̳͑̆͂̒̿̓̆͋͗͝͝ strings by humming random patterns as they come to me (perhaps a reference to Unfiltered Infinity? ).

And for the answer...
I’m very open to that. I probably should just do more trips and keep contemplating during them, as you suggested!

I think the issue is that I still have some lingering 'otherness/materialism/separate reality from the mind' arguments in my brain that I can’t seem to deconstruct. I keep thinking: "Sure, I can conceptually and even experientially understand how the mind works, and how it uses concepts and experiences to define infinity, beauty, God, oneness, and the reality it’s perceiving." But I think the fact that I cannot truly control reality in both my waking and higher consciousness states makes me believe there is 'otherness' independent of my mind, with properties and processes I can never know. And this whole concept of God is just the ultimate way my mind can understand itself and ponder on itself, but the actual source, or the Creator, who is able to mold, spawn, and twist reality, is far different from what I could ever imagine.

The best way I can describe it is: There’s reality, then there’s my mind, which evolved from that reality into consciousness to try and understand how reality functions. Sure, my mind is trying to understand reality, and it has plenty of infinite properties, processes, concepts like Infinity, God, and Solipsism, and psychedelic experiences it can create and explore, which is fascinating. But who’s claiming that it’s what created that reality, or is that reality? That's a huge assumption to make. I don’t know if I’m making sense.

Leo’s post about being able to manifest a unicorn from pure thought and consciousness was curious to me, but I’ve never really experienced that, nor seen anyone actually do it, just claim it. The closest I’ve ever heard of it is Tesla and how he created his inventions, but even then, he still had to go through a process of materializing those creations. It’s not like it just poofed in front of him for all eternity. And also, this idea that the only present moment is the actual starting point of creation, and from there, I create stories to make sense of it, feels very weird. I had some psychedelic experiences that denied this idea, but it faded sadly. I guess I’ll just keep updating on the forum as I keep breaking my mind, teehee  . Thank you!

Let's start with whether reality is a mind or if it's physical and objective.  Outside the mind.  Let me tell you about the question that stirred me at age 15. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around does it make a sound?  This question is much more profound then what is first imagined.    Let's take it a step farther.  Could reality exist without someone being conscious of it? Or someone to be aware of it?  If not what would that mean?  What would it.mean for something to exist without anyone knowing it?  That is a profound question.  Leo's videos on what is perception covers this.  It can even invoke an awakening.

Edited Saturday at 09:32 PM by Inliytened1

[Breakingthewall]

6 hours ago, gettoefl said:

Form is the same as finitude is the same as flawed is the same as fearful and that to me is about as incongruous to the absolute perfection as can be. Certainly the absolute is happy to yield to such suffering states but seems this would not be the norm but an anomaly, a hypothetical hallucination or a bad nightmare if you will. Everything is possible but happiness is the default in contrast to what one gets here.

Form means differentiation, without differentiation there is nothing. Not happiness or anything else. 

[Davino]

On 26/7/2025 at 11:03 AM, Breakingthewall said:

Yes experience and conciousness are unlimited, I agree. What I pointed is that If you remain in the perspective that reality is fundamentally experience, you remain in the position of a conscious observer of reality. This is a center. You are observing reality; it's inevitable. The shift is taking a step back and opening the focus, collapsing the observer and the experience. Then there is no experience, there is reality, and change becomes irrelevant; it is arising that occurs. It becomes transparent. Then the absolute truth (to call it somehow) manifests, the substance from which change is made. This could be "defined " as absence of limits, that implies absolute potential, that is perceived as plenitude, positive push, absolute glory.

Oh, if that's what you meant, yeah, I agree. Don't think that I have not done the work of uniting oberserver, observation, observed or realizing the spacious centerless wide Awake Consciousness... I've done it, we are in the same page.

Also, after reflecting I think that when you say don't limit reality to experience, you mean that you can realize the fabric of experience, like the cracks of reality which manifest all phenomena (which I call consciousness). For me, that's a meta-experience but it's still a experience, because you are it, you are the fabric of reality experiencing the fabric of reality while manifesting experience. So consider that maybe the reality which manifests experience, you have also experienced, hence I say that Reality is Experience and that it manifests in a perfect coherent way.

[Schizophonia]

23 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If there is no form, there is nothing, and in the absence of limits, form will eventually arise again. So, there will always be form. But form doesn't always have to be suffering. There are infinite possibilities. The most complex thing we know is the human form, which is quite suffering. But there may be other, less dense forms, dimensions that we literally cannot imagine.

Furthermore, any other life form other than human is considerably less suffering. If you're a bird, for example, everything is perfect 90% of the time. With humans, the mental dimension arises, the ego, etc., and we already know that it's crazy, but that's not all there is to it. Perhaps it's just a temporary form. I would say that we have to give it our all here. Then, who knows?

There are an infinity number of forms that suffer infinity more than humans, because of infinity.

[yetineti]

On 7/25/2025 at 5:43 PM, Breakingthewall said:

They are. The form exist. What is apparent is the perspective of the experiencer, but as appearance it's real, and the form itself is relative movement of the reality, manifestation that arise. The real dissolution of the form is death, the end of the existence, understanding existence as manifestation of the reality. But manifestation always happens, because absence of manifestation doesn't happen, is out of the "happening". The nature of reality beyond the form can manifest if the form becomes transparent to itself, but there is always form, that means, perception or conciousness. They exist, but they are not the reality, are a perspective in the reality. Are real, but as a perspective 

Now people will tell me that this is mental masturbation, but can't be more clear.

Death is an illusion. It’s not real. It’s actually impossible.

And you’ve never experienced it. You don’t know what it is. Yet you talk like you do.

Hence, ‘fantasy.’