Leo is Setting Impossible/Toxic Expectations

[SQAAD]

Leo, you said that it shocked you that zen monks "only" meditate for 3-4 hours per day. And that you expected them to meditate for 12 hours per day.

I think this is unrealistic expectations and standards. The body has natural limits. I don't see anyone paying attention to his breath for 12 hours per day (unless someone wipes his buttocks for him, cooks all his meals, has tons of money in the bank, has little to no unfulfilled desires, has zero psychological baggage, etc)

And i don't see anyone being able to continuously concentrate (concentration exercise) on a single object non-stop for more than 3-4 hours per day.

Concentration exercises where you focus non-stop take a lot  of energy and.. Also even if you could focus for 12 hours a day, that doesn't guarantee better results.

I have not met anyone in my life being able to concentrate for that long.

I think you are setting impossible expectations. Being able to sit and do nothing for 12 hours, maybe is possible. But being able to focus for that long, i don't buy it. Nor have i ever seen it happening. 

Also, your stress hormones levels would go through the roof, if you tried to concentrate more, after a set period of time.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:05 AM by SQAAD

[Xonas Pitfall]

Hmm... I don't think it's about placing toxic expectations. The point is that for the kind of work they’re trying to do, achieving God consciousness or the highest states of awareness, their current practices just aren’t enough.

If you’ve ever done psychedelics, you know those states are on a completely different level. Comparing them to basic meditation sessions doesn’t make sense. If someone wants proper insight, they probably need long, intense retreats that radically alter their state for extended periods. You need to be out of the ego for a while to even start seeing reality from that perspective. Meditating for a couple of hours and then going back to regular life usually isn’t enough, especially if it’s not paired with serious contemplation about reality, nature, and the self.

If someone claims to be a monk or a seeker of enlightenment, basic ritualistic meditation isn’t going to cut it. They probably need more advanced breathwork, near-death type intensity, yoga, or psychedelics. Or they need extremely long and focused retreats. The goal is to shut down the ego and the default mode network long enough, then reflect and integrate what was experienced. That process has to repeat until full realization, God, infinity, and solipsistic truth.

It’s like trying to get a bodybuilder’s physique without steroids or extreme genetics. Sure, you can get fit, but beyond a certain point, you need serious intervention. The same goes here. If the goal is just to live a peaceful monk lifestyle, that’s fine. But if the goal is to fully understand the nature of reality, something much more hardcore is required for most people.

The original critique is basically this:

If you actually want to be a real spiritual seeker and pursue pure truth, you need a more hardcore approach. If your goal is just to live a monk-like, more peaceful, grounded life, in tune with nature or the earth, that’s fine. But that’s not the Real purpose of Spirituality; basically, peacocking it.

The problem is, a lot of people have never experienced altered states of God-realization. So when they reach shallow or surface-level awareness, it feels so different from their normal life that they think they’ve hit the highest layer of spirituality. But it's not. It just feels distinct enough from the average unconscious way of living. So a lot of the time, they just try to teach those mild states to others, and then the rest of the work is keeping the monastery running and practicing in a more social, cult-like traditional environment, as he said in the original video.

The point of that video was to draw the line between real spirituality and fake practice.

One path is more concerned with numbing or emptying the mind, kind of like what ketamine does. You turn into an animal that forgets it has a self or ego and operates only on instinct and raw perception (That’s definitely a valuable insight still, don’t get me wrong.) Or you become a sort of mini, hipster-like version that fully feels the environment and the present moment, but doesn’t really contemplate what any of it means.

But there’s more to spirituality than just that. Real spirituality includes those elements but also goes beyond them. It pushes toward realizing God-consciousness, deconstructing the ego’s limitations, and questioning how the mind even constructs reality in the first place. It involves breaking down science, politics, culture, and all the human biases and frames we unconsciously operate through. That’s a much fuller vision of what "pure philosophy" or "pure spirituality" should be. It should aim to develop the mind to such a capable and fluid degree that it can see through all self-deception, unravel the illusions, and raise humanity’s awareness, not just shut off the mind and become a calm lotus-sitting animal experiencing the moment.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, SQAAD said:

I think this is unrealistic expectations and standards. The body has natural limits. I don't see anyone paying attention to his breath for 12 hours per day (unless someone wipes his buttocks for him, cooks all his meals, has tons of money in the bank, has little to no unfulfilled desires, has zero psychological baggage, etc)

And i don't see anyone being able to continuously concentrate (concentration exercise) on a single object non-stop for more than 3-4 hours per day.

1) Of course it's possible to meditate and concentrate 12+ hrs per day if you have no other obligations. That's what a Vipassana retreat it. I've done it. So have hundreds of thousands of people.

You just haven't done a retreat so you are inexperienced with the field.

2) The point about the monks is that even in a monastery mostly what people do is survival, not spiritial practice.

3) I wasn't telling you to become a monk. I was explaining the power of social survival.

Edited Wednesday at 01:45 PM by Leo Gura

[Jirh]

Real enlightenment is extremely rare. It requires extra special effort and dedication. This shouldn't be a surprise. 3-4 hours of spiritual practice per day is nowhere near serious enough, it's child's play. You cannot expect to find extraordinary results from that kind of effort.

What you see is people lost in materialism running away from a past and towards a future in an infinite chase, living in constant fear with spikes of panic and brief moments of what may be called "happiness". And that's still not counting those with hard addictions who are lost in hedonism.

[Leo Gura]

Eckhart Tolle sat on a park bench for 2 years.

David Hawkins was alone in meditation for 6 months.

Om Swami spent 3-6 month is 24/7 solo meditation on a freezing cold mountain.

Peter Ralston lived alone in the jungle in Hawaii for 2 years.

Daniel Ingram has done many multi-week 24/7 retreats.

This is realistically what it takes to achieve serious spiritual results. That's why it's rare.

Edited Wednesday at 12:11 PM by Leo Gura

[Dodo]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Eckhart Tolle sat on a park bench for 2 years.

David Hawkins was alone in meditation for 6 months.

Om Swami spent 3-6 month is 24/7 solo meditation on a freezing cold mountain.

Peter Ralston lived alone in the jungle in Hawaii for 2 years.

Daniel Ingram has done many multi-week 24/7 retreats.

This is realistically what it takes to achieve serious spiritual results. That's why it's rare.

No two have the same journey. 

What is rare is people to be authentically themsleves 💯 

[koops]

Ofc is almost imposible, thats why nobody does it.

But still, you dont need to get to a elite level.

If you meditate 1 hour per day, you go to some 1 week long retreats, you throw away your screens, and you contemplate deeply, you will reach an unbelievable level of presence, depth and wisdom.

But you will have to reach financial tranquility or stay in your job and spend the rest of your time meditating/Contemplating

 

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

On 7/23/2025 at 0:58 PM, Leo Gura said:

1) Of course it's possible to meditate and concentrate 12+ hrs per day if you have no other obligations. That's what a Vipassana retreat it. I've done it. So have hundreds of thousands of people.

You just haven't done a retreat so you are inexperienced with the field.

2) The point about the monks is that even in a monastery mostly what people do is survival, not spiritial practice.

3) I wasn't telling you to become a monk. I was explaining the power of social survival.

I do 40 minutes of concentration exercise per day and have seen very good results thus far.

You make it sound like 3-4 hours of meditation is nothing. I don't see anyone meditating more than that long term. Unless he is a literal robot with no feelings.

I focus on a very small point in my hand. I don't buy it than anyone can focus on such a small point fot multiple hours.

If anyone can do it, i wanna see it.

If you pay attention to your breath that's a litle different because you have pauses where you rest a little bit. If you concentrate on a whole wall instead of a small point then i guess you can do it for longer.

Also, few years ago, you did strong determination sitting (concentration exercise) and lasted for 1 and a half hours.

 

 

Edited Thursday at 10:50 AM by SQAAD

[Ulax]

Why not? Think how exceptional a pro athlete’s skill is compared to the average player of a sport. 

[Max1993]

@SQAAD If you are relaxed enough you can do it. Keep going gently further and further with psychedelics as well. Follow your intuition, take it easy but take it. We eat carrots for good eye sight, why not take certain foods for consciousness as well? It is only natural and helpful. Mushrooms are medicinal food. 

[Razard86]

I don't know how anyone is meditating to this.....

The only thing I've found that can produce these results is OBEs and I'm not talking astral projection I'm talking a controlled NDE. Unless fear of death is faced I really have no clue what a person is doing. To go infinite the finite gotta be surrendered.

P.S. Psychedelics are really this radical and beyond, you have no idea how non normal Reality can reveal itself to be.

[ZenSwift]

On 23/07/2025 at 6:07 AM, Leo Gura said:

Eckhart Tolle sat on a park bench for 2 years.

David Hawkins was alone in meditation for 6 months.

Om Swami spent 3-6 month is 24/7 solo meditation on a freezing cold mountain.

Peter Ralston lived alone in the jungle in Hawaii for 2 years.

Daniel Ingram has done many multi-week 24/7 retreats.

This is realistically what it takes to achieve serious spiritual results. That's why it's rare.

Damn I gotta get my stats up

[Leo Gura]

@SQAAD Read Om Swami's book from my book list. It will open your eyes to what real spiritual work is.

[Globalcollective]

On 23/07/2025 at 10:44 AM, Xonas Pitfall said:

Hmm... I don't think it's about placing toxic expectations. The point is that for the kind of work they’re trying to do, achieving God consciousness or the highest states of awareness, their current practices just aren’t enough.

If you’ve ever done psychedelics, you know those states are on a completely different level. Comparing them to basic meditation sessions doesn’t make sense. If someone wants proper insight, they probably need long, intense retreats that radically alter their state for extended periods. You need to be out of the ego for a while to even start seeing reality from that perspective. Meditating for a couple of hours and then going back to regular life usually isn’t enough, especially if it’s not paired with serious contemplation about reality, nature, and the self.

If someone claims to be a monk or a seeker of enlightenment, basic ritualistic meditation isn’t going to cut it. They probably need more advanced breathwork, near-death type intensity, yoga, or psychedelics. Or they need extremely long and focused retreats. The goal is to shut down the ego and the default mode network long enough, then reflect and integrate what was experienced. That process has to repeat until full realization, God, infinity, and solipsistic truth.

It’s like trying to get a bodybuilder’s physique without steroids or extreme genetics. Sure, you can get fit, but beyond a certain point, you need serious intervention. The same goes here. If the goal is just to live a peaceful monk lifestyle, that’s fine. But if the goal is to fully understand the nature of reality, something much more hardcore is required for most people.

The original critique is basically this:

If you actually want to be a real spiritual seeker and pursue pure truth, you need a more hardcore approach. If your goal is just to live a monk-like, more peaceful, grounded life, in tune with nature or the earth, that’s fine. But that’s not the Real purpose of Spirituality; basically, peacocking it.

The problem is, a lot of people have never experienced altered states of God-realization. So when they reach shallow or surface-level awareness, it feels so different from their normal life that they think they’ve hit the highest layer of spirituality. But it's not. It just feels distinct enough from the average unconscious way of living. So a lot of the time, they just try to teach those mild states to others, and then the rest of the work is keeping the monastery running and practicing in a more social, cult-like traditional environment, as he said in the original video.

The point of that video was to draw the line between real spirituality and fake practice.

One path is more concerned with numbing or emptying the mind, kind of like what ketamine does. You turn into an animal that forgets it has a self or ego and operates only on instinct and raw perception (That’s definitely a valuable insight still, don’t get me wrong.) Or you become a sort of mini, hipster-like version that fully feels the environment and the present moment, but doesn’t really contemplate what any of it means.

But there’s more to spirituality than just that. Real spirituality includes those elements but also goes beyond them. It pushes toward realizing God-consciousness, deconstructing the ego’s limitations, and questioning how the mind even constructs reality in the first place. It involves breaking down science, politics, culture, and all the human biases and frames we unconsciously operate through. That’s a much fuller vision of what "pure philosophy" or "pure spirituality" should be. It should aim to develop the mind to such a capable and fluid degree that it can see through all self-deception, unravel the illusions, and raise humanity’s awareness, not just shut off the mind and become a calm lotus-sitting animal experiencing the moment.

@Xonas Pitfall I enjoyed reading this, thank you 🙏