The Illusion of Moral Progress: Why Gradual Change will never be enough

[trenton]

I have been doing a lot of contemplation and research lately. I believe I have broken through many layers of American propaganda that I have been conditioned with. This propaganda runs much deeper than just white washing a few significant historical moments. The propaganda runs so deep, that it effectively shapes our entire world view, giving us false hope that change will come about through things like peaceful protests. In history we are taught about many horrible things in history such as slavery and genocide. It is presented in a way that makes it appear as if genuine moral progress has occurred, and that there is real hope for fundamental change. My claim is that humanity has never fundamentally changed because the illusion of moral progress is a consequence of the wealthy and powerful making strategic repositions which safeguard apparent moral progress, and this power dynamic has never actually changed.

First of all, we need to discuss who benefits from war. Your history teacher probably told you that most wars are fought over resources. This is misleading because the truth is that these resources will not be equally distributed. These resources will primarily be controlled by the wealthy and powerful, therefore making war over resources more about wealth extraction for a few rather than societies' survival as the poor and middle class die for these wars. Throughout history there have been many layers of propaganda to justify wars such as religious and holy claims. This created the illusion of moral progress by making it seem like the uncivilized heathens were being either crushed or converted. In reality, seemingly religious wars were usually about economic motives and wealth extraction, much like they still are today because humanity has not fundamentally changed these power dynamics.

If you look more closely at wars throughout American history, you will find all kinds of misleading claims that your history teacher told you and that I believed. Starting with the American Revolution, this war has a ton of mythology and propaganda around it. It is framed as if this war was about "taxation without representation." This is misleading because it ignores who was most affected by these taxes. The reality is that the middle class faced average taxes, while the wealthy faced higher taxes which threatened their tea companies. In order to garner public support, the wealthy spread propaganda about Democracy, everyone having a voice, and everyone being represented while being taxed. In reality, the wealthy wanted to create a system in which they were taxed less and the middle class were taxed more. As many people died for the ideals of democracy, what happened was that the wealthy tried to go back on their word. They considered things like making George Washington king, but they faced enough backlash for democracy to accidentally emerge rather than emerge through genuine moral progress. There is also a ton of mythology around the founding fathers who are treated as wise by building a government by the people for the people when really they were largely privileged white men. The freedoms they gave us in the Bill of Rights were not out of the kindness of their hearts. These were calculated decisions designed to give the general population the illusion of freedom while maintaining a system that benefits primarily themselves. This is why the Amendment process has been deliberately designed to be nearly impossible, requiring a super majority. The freedoms that are guaranteed in the constitution are largely abandoned when it serves elite interests. An obvious example of this is all the blatant "taxation without representation" within Washington D.C. The people are being taxed, but they are being prevented from voting because the Republicans fear that they will vote blue. This is punches a hole in the American propaganda around the American Revolution because America obviously does not give a shit about democracy and making sure everyone has a voice. Once again, this is about the wealthy having a voice, not the general population.

The propaganda spread through your history teacher continues throughout every major war in American history. The Civil War and the abolition of slavery were never the result of genuine moral progress on the part of humanity. These were largely accidental consequences of the wealthy and powerful strategically repositioning as they developed more sophisticated forms of control over the population. Think about it for a second, in the South, who do you think would be raising hell about the abolition of slavery? Do you think every normal middle class family was equally concerned about this, or do you think it was the wealthy slave owners who were raising hell about abolition? Obviously, the wealthy slave owners insisted on sending the middle class to die for them claiming it was to "fight for their way of life" when 'their' meant the wealthy. The Civil War was created by this conflict between elite interests, not out of genuine moral concern. Some Northern elites saw slavery as sometimes giving the South an unfair advantage in farming and thus wanted to abolish it.  Other Northern elites saw industrialization and wage slavery as even more profitable than chattel slavery because you can trap your workers in debt and force them to pay with company cash that goes back to them in exchange for the food and shelter they provide without ever paying for the worker's medical needs. This motivated the Northern elites to make their system of exploitation dominant. The system I am referring to is the one that was present during the industrial revolution that had atrocious working conditions. Nevertheless, the propaganda is that we were fighting for freedom when really the well-being of the black people never mattered. This is why the wealthy did not follow through on their word. Reconstruction was largely abandoned, allowing Southern white supremacy to develop new methods of exploitation such as indentured servitude, selective crime making, or just straight up slavery in blatant violation of the 13th Amendment which was largely for show. Slavery was not actually criminalized and many wealthy slave owners just ignored it and continued it for decades. Eventually, the North just accepted Southern white supremacy because the war wasn't actually about any of this moral progress, it was about conflicting wealthy interests. Therefore, the actual progress made from the abolition of slavery was minor. Black people just became victims of new systems of exploitation which continue to this day with more sophisticated and subtle forms discrimination like red-lining, selective policing, and so forth. Black people were never set free, instead they became victims of more sophisticated control methods that give them the illusion of freedom and telling them to be grateful for crumbs. In that sense, humanity has not fundamentally changed because the power dynamics which prevent moral progress are still in place and they have only become harder to detect, not easier. We think we are more advanced and morally superior to the people who lived during slavery, but this is the illusion of moral progress designed to give us false hope that justice is possible through gradual change. This entire "gradual change" narrative also serves the wealthy and powerful because they get to choose when to strategically reposition in a way that is profitable and beneficial to them. None of this was ever about moral progress.

Continuing with deconstructing propaganda, I would like to discuss World War II. This one is a bit difficult because it is one of those rare instances in which the moral stakes were genuine, and not entirely bullshit propaganda, although there is still plenty of bullshit propaganda nonetheless. Nazi and Japanese imperialism were genuine threats with the Nazis planning to round people up and send them to death camps while the Japanese demonstrated their brutality during the Rape of Nanking while building their own concentration camps for captured prisoners in which they ran experiments on them. That said, I still have questions about why the allies initially allowed the Nazi expansion. My history teacher told me it was a misguided philosophy of appeasing the bully, but maybe the wealthy didn't seem war as profitable yet. The reality is that the allies were initially on Hitler's side because the elites saw it as beneficial to themselves, and none of this was an innocent miscalculation. Western businesses were drawn to the anti-socialist policies that might be used to control their workers and hoped that Germany would serve as a buffer against the Soviet Union, eventually drawing them into conflict with each other. many corporations had major investments in German industry across America and Britain as they provided technology for Nazi concentration camps. The allies allowed German imperialism initially because they had calculated that doing so would ultimately serve their own imperialist interests. This included intentionally allowing Hitler to take over Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia had strong defenses and was an ally of the USSR, therefore the allies allowed Hitler's expansion as they sided with authoritarianism and fascism our of their own capitalist interests. Furthermore, even after the Allies declared war, they initially did nothing to help Poland because they were hoping Germany would betray the USSR and fight them, therefore France built a wall which was just for show as they did nothing. the wall was useless anyway because the Nazis just went around it. The war was for domestic consumption while profiting military industries rather than genuine opposition to Nazi death camps. My history teacher suggested that modern policies have improved because world leaders have learned from their mistakes, but the reality is that WWII was not a mistake, and the world leaders knew what they were doing. This is why global policies are ignored when it serves elite interests. Any apparent moral progress which followed was once again accidental and not genuine.

The propaganda continues with America dropping the Atomic bombs on Japan. My history teacher told me that the reason the atomic bombs were dropped was the prevent unnecessary American losses. On top of that Japan was painted as strong and imposing by telling troops to fight to the death. This was actually just Japanese propaganda because in reality the emperor was negotiating terms of surrender with the USSR. Instead the narrative goes that America dropped the bombs to force Japanese surrender, but in reality the atomic bombs were political theater designed to show power to the USSR, not Japan. They were actually unnecessary for winning the war and Japan would have surrendered even without the American invasion as it was clear that they were losing. America wanted to get to Japan and establish their own sphere of influence before the Soviets could much like during the Cold War. Japan essentially became a permanent American military base and a client state disguised as an ally. The entire Japanese economy was structured to favor rather than oppose U.S. interests which would not have happened had Japan surrendered to the USSR. Remember, America did not rebuild Japan our of the goodness of our hearts. We did not rebuild Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Iraq, or Afghanistan because those locations did not have the same strategic advantages as Japan. Even Obama repeated this WWII narrative which serves to make the American empire seem benevolent because "we do it because its right!" In reality Japan pays billions to U.S. military bases, Japanese policy remains subordinated to U.S. interests, and Japan cannot develop independent foreign policy.

Another profound layer of propaganda is even the names of "World War I" and "World War II." These names are extremely misleading because that is not what these wars were about. In reality the Cold War began during the military inventions around the Bolshevik revolution in Russia in 1917. The Western powers funded the white army, hoping to defeat the socialist ideology which threatened their own corporate interests. "World War II" can more accurately be called The Anti-Soviet Phase because the Western powers hoped that Hitler's fascist regime would destroy the USSR. This was a continuation of the Cold War which my school told me started after WWII. The reason Hitler seemed so powerful and so intelligent as he used new war tactics to conquer so much territory, was because the Allies were barely fighting back. This apparent genius was largely circumstantial and Hitler was not as brilliant as depicted. The war strategy that Hitler actually implemented was to attack countries that don't fight back, which therefore allowed for rapid expansion throughout Europe. American propaganda completely glosses over how the Allies initially supported Hitler and fascism as the Allies funded the Nazis and even gave them materials to build the concentration camps. The alliance to defeat Hitler didn't start until 1941 when the allies were finally forced to fight back as Hitler threatened their interests as well. Suddenly, the war was reframed as a moral crusade against the evil Nazis. This is no better than monarchs using religious propaganda to justify wealth extraction from their imperialist ambitions. The reason Neo Nazis are so prevalent in America is because fundamentally it was never about fighting the evils of Nazism, but rather advancing the imperial interests of the Allies rather than the Axis Powers who were initially on our side.

Once again, none of this was a mistake. The narrative that humans do not learn from past mistakes in history is misleading, because the reality is that humanity is not making mistakes. These are the results of calculated decisions that are framed as ignorant mistakes when in reality the people running these wars actually know what they are doing. Humanity hasn't fundamentally changed because of all of the same power structures in place that lead to these wars. The only way in which humanity is learning from history is actually looking for ways to build more sophisticated systems of control and exploitation which extract the maximum wealth, and this is how it always has been throughout human history as we went to war for "resources." WWII was not about fighting the evils of the Nazis, but rather the entire war was sophisticated orchestrated political theater. Educating humanity in the hopes of preventing "mistakes" is actually another source of false hope that serves those in power because they are learning from history, but they are just applying the knowledge to help them more effectively exploit and control people. What is actually changing throughout human history is how those in power make oppression and exploitation appear voluntary and beneficial as their methods become more subtle rather than outright slavery, monarchy, and imperial wars. This creates the illusion of moral progress, when fundamentally nothing has changed despite the surface appearances and propaganda.

Finally, I would like to discuss the Civil Rights Movement. There is a lot of mythology surrounding this and I think even Spiral Dynamics makes "mistakes" when analyzing these things. Much like Ken Wilber makes "mistakes" when he claims Donald Trump is stage yellow when really Donald Trump serves his own biases and interests as we can paint others who oppose him as "less evolved." In the case of the Civil Rights movement, the Spiral Dynamics historical narrative paints this era as the emergence of stage green. I think this is wrong because the Civil Rights movement was actually much more sophisticated and intelligent than contemporary left wing movements which Spiral Dynamics correctly predicts will largely fail due to the power dynamics in play. The protests against the Gaza War were largely to no avail, the protests following the death of George Floyd brought minimum concessions while increasing police funding, and so on and so forth. Most well-meaning left wing movements today match stage green, and they will largely fail. However, the reason they fail is because they lack the strategic calculations that were present in the Civil Rights movement which may have actually been more intelligent than contemporary leftists. Contemporary leftists have now been taught that peaceful protests will lead to change, but this is a manipulation of the historical narrative at the hands of those in power in order to channel resistance into more manageable forms. The reality of Martin Luther King's success was actually more nuanced than just taking a strong moral position. King was also very well educated and even came from a privileged background himself. he understood the power dynamics at play more clearly than current leftists, and he devised a deliberately strategy to overcome these power dynamics. Peaceful protests alone were never going to be enough to bring about change. These protests needed to carried out when the elite powers were divided and weakened due to the need to appear superior to the Soviet Union for propaganda purposes. these protests cannot be carried out at just anytime with significant effect. This is what gave King a little bit more leverage over the elites than present leftists have or realize they need in order to be successful. Likewise, the reason why showing peace and love as police officers beat you or as the British empire kills the people of India, is not because the universe is just and kindness and love will ultimately prevail. This is actually a deliberate strategy to make the aggressor seem brutal by comparison, thereby controlling the narrative and garnering more support. It is a strategic application of morality rather than a universal rule that works under all circumstances as those in power want us to believe. Unfortunately, current leftists often believe in moral persuasion, but this is an oversimplification of why the Civil Rights movement was so effective. Maybe Martin Luther King and other Civil Rights leaders were actually stage yellow rather than stage green like current leftists. Meanwhile, I find it misleading to frame the 1960's as the emergence of green when really all levels of the Spiral were present throughout human history, but humanity went back and forth as these stages competed with each other. Unfortunately, today's leftists are often bought into the oversimplified and sanitized version of Martin Luther King that makes him look less intelligent than he actually was, thereby leading to less effective forms of resistance on their part.

My new understanding of history challenges the optimism that I am sold by many people, including Leo. Maybe humanity isn't actually getting better by evolving through these stages. Maybe humanity is actually entrenching itself more deeply in these elite power games as they develop more sophisticated methods of control. Today modern technology gives the elite class omnipresent surveillance. They control the media and spread propaganda and narratives more effectively and convincingly. They distort the entire historical narrative we were taught to give us false hope of moral progress without fundamental change. They make our exploitation appear voluntary when we can choose from 50 different cereals at the grocery store, but we can't negotiate higher wages because the worker unions have been co-opted by the corporation to give workers crumbs rather than meaningful change. Maybe humanity is actually getting worse as we develop more convincing lies as the climate and environment is being destroyed by unfettered capitalism. Leo plays into this myth of the just world by talking about how evil only succeeds in the short term because the universe is selfless. Actually, it is entirely possible that humanity will remain stuck in these exploitative power games for thousands and thousands of years, potentially spanning all the way until our eventual extinction. If humanity hasn't fundamentally changed, then maybe we will be this way forever and at the end of the day the wealthy and powerful will get away with everything and fundamental change will never happen for humanity. Instead, we will be given the illusion of freedom as methods of control become more sophisticated and convincing. Maybe the general population will never become intelligent enough to see through all of this elaborate deception as education and propaganda becomes more widespread and convincing.

In conclusion, my claim is that gradual change and moral progress are narratives that give us false hope. Most apparent moral progress throughout history has actually been strategic repositioning of those with wealth and power. It is almost never about moral progress, only when the appearance of moral progress serves those in power do they allow it. We actually are not morally superior to or more intelligent than previous generations because this is propaganda designed to make us feel grateful for how good we have it. Meanwhile, the control methods in America have become very sophisticated. The media manipulation has divided America between the false choice of Democrats and Republicans. These election cycles are political theater that prevent deep change because Democrats still serve primarily corporate interests despite being the "lesser evil." For example, Joe Biden was treated like he would save us from the evil Donald Trump. In reality most of Joe Biden's positions and policies served corporate interests regardless, just not to the same extreme as Trump. For example, Joe Biden acted heroic when he stood by workers who wanted to organize unions. This was clever political theater designed to support only specific kinds of unions. What the left wing does not understand is that the "victories" of the Starbucks workers over the corporation was not as impactful as they framed it. These unions are not as powerful as they have historically have been because they will likely be co-opted by the corporation to give workers crumbs while pretending their voices are heard when really they are being suppressed. This is my experience with working with the Kroger union at my job. They act like they represent me while actively suppressing me and taking power away from me despite the surface level appearance. This is just another example of more sophisticated manipulation designed to make me feel free when really, the control methods have just become more deeply embedded and ingrained. This is the most likely outcome for those Starbucks workers.

I no longer believe in the hopeful narratives I was taught about humanity. I no longer believe in this illusion of moral progress because humanity still hasn't fundamentally changed despite these surface level appearances. We live in a "democracy" but we don't actually have any real power despite appearing more free. America does not actually value democracy, representation, and freedom as these values are propaganda which serve elite interests while making us feel like we have it better than others by comparison. These values are consistently abandoned the moment they serve elite interests. I hope my arguments helps you to see through the propaganda you were sold in school.

[Rafael Thundercat]

3 hours ago, trenton said:

seemingly religious wars were usually about economic motives and wealth extraction, much like they still are today because humanity has not fundamentally changed these power dynamics.

Make a deep resarch about Salem Witch Trials. That was not only about Trials of accusation from devil worship  that was about theaf of resources. 

[Rafael Thundercat]

3 hours ago, trenton said:

Maybe humanity is actually getting worse as we develop more convincing lies as the climate and environment is being destroyed by unfettered capitalism. Leo plays into this myth of the just world by talking about how evil only succeeds in the short term because the universe is selfless. Actually, it is entirely possible that humanity will remain stuck in these exploitative power games for thousands and thousands of years, potentially spanning all the way until our eventual extinction. If humanity hasn't fundamentally changed, then maybe we will be this way forever and at the end of the day the wealthy and powerful will get away with everything and fundamental change will never happen for humanity. Instead, we will be given the illusion of freedom as methods of control become more sophisticated and convincing. Maybe the general population will never become intelligent enough to see through all of this elaborate deception as education and propaganda becomes more widespread and convincing.

Well and in another thread guys were calling Leo a pessimist. Yes Reality may have another Ideal than our human optmistic view of happy ending.

[trenton]

I looked at the Salem Witch Trials. Those accusations were definitely weaponized to seize assets from some wealthy people who were vulnerable widows so that the wealth could be transferred to Court officials who profited, competing wealthy families who seized assets through legal theft, and religious authorities who exploited the situation to gain institutional power.

There may be modern parallels to these which trials in today's society though they are masked in more convincing secular language. These examples might include Civil asset forfeiture in which police seize property from suspected drug dealers without conviction, Anti-terrorism measures which freeze assets based on accusations, or Eminent domain abuse in which the government seizes private property for the "public good" when really it is for developers. In todays world the government uses accusations of terrorism and crime to seize property. If we oppose this legalized theft, then we are treated like we are defending terrorists and criminals, much like opposing the Witch Trials meant you were supporting Satan. The entire thing is an obvious strawman designed to scare me should I try to call out the blatant exploitation of innocent people under the guise of moral virtue.

These abusive patterns mirror abusive families with abusers claiming they are the abused one and constantly finding ways to flip the narrative and play the victim as they exploit you. There is nothing you can possibly say to make the situation better.

I think some of the implications of this is that the rise of reason over superstition was much more complicated than just an intellectual breakthrough. The church officials probably knew that a lot of religion was bullshit, but they just wanted power. That is why they are so close-minded and refuse to change their "sacred" religious beliefs. they teach their followers to have faith in the dogma as if it makes them virtuous, but really it makes them pawns for those who know they are selling them bullshit like the prosperity gospel with promises that never materialize. This is why religious beliefs are so much tied into survival. It is not that the church believes these things, but this facade creates a situation in which it is hard to break through these power dynamics.

[aurum]

@trenton So what would you prefer?

How are you expecting to run society without an elite?

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, trenton said:

My new understanding of history challenges the optimism that I am sold by many people, including Leo. Maybe humanity isn't actually getting better by evolving through these stages. Maybe humanity is actually entrenching itself more deeply in these elite power games as they develop more sophisticated methods of control.

Optimism sold by Leo? Lolz

There are videos I haven't even released because I don't want to blackpill you guys.

I share so much corruption via my blog that people are getting sick of it.

Of course you are correct that there is much collective self-deception, ideology, and corruption in war and politics.

But it is silly to claim that there has not been moral progress when the moral progress has been massive. Just because there is still corruption left doesn't mean enormous progress hasn't been made. It's odd that you are such a student of history yet you miss the forest for the trees -- focusing on all the negative stuff but overlooking all the progress.

Dude, rape was barely illegal 100 years ago and women couldn't doing anything. Look at today. No moral progress?

Humanity is getting better, is evolving through the stages. But the corruption is so deep that correcting it never ends. Of course elite power games are still rampant, but not as bad as they used to be, when elites could just have you murdered on a whim. When was the last time elites had someone murdered on a whim in the West? It's freakishly rare outside of terrorists.

Edited Monday at 12:07 AM by Leo Gura

[Aether Phoenix]

It is hard to believe the moral progress that the World, in general, has made in the last 50/100 years.  
Civil & racial rights, Death penalty, Women's inequality, LGBTQ+ equality, Violence... 

[Hardkill]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Optimism sold by Leo? Lolz

There are videos I haven't even released because I don't want to blackpill you guys.

I share so much corruption via my blog that people are getting sick of it.

Of course you are correct that there is much collective self-deception, ideology, and corruption in war and politics.

What dark secrets are you hiding?

[Basman]

But Weo, what's the point if we don't live in a communist utopia right now? It's all shit and corrupt and my parents are divorced 😔.

[trenton]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Optimism sold by Leo? Lolz

There are videos I haven't even released because I don't want to blackpill you guys.

I share so much corruption via my blog that people are getting sick of it.

Of course you are correct that there is much collective self-deception, ideology, and corruption in war and politics.

But it is silly to claim that there has not been moral progress when the moral progress has been massive. Just because there is still corruption left doesn't mean enormous progress hasn't been made. It's odd that you are such a student of history yet you miss the forest for the trees -- focusing on all the negative stuff but overlooking all the progress.

Dude, rape was barely illegal 100 years ago and women couldn't doing anything. Look at today. No moral progress?

Humanity is getting better, is evolving through the stages. But the corruption is so deep that correcting it never ends. Of course elite power games are still rampant, but not as bad as they used to be, when elites could just have you murdered on a whim. When was the last time elites had someone murdered on a whim in the West? It's freakishly rare outside of terrorists.

@Leo Gura My apologies Leo, but you are projecting. Due to your intellectual arrogance, you present me as silly without addressing my core arguments. It is in fact you who are missing the forest for the trees, not me.

First of all, if you want to establish your credibility through knowledge you are not sharing because it will blackpill me, then why don't you go ahead and tell me? I have just deconstructed so much propaganda that it is changing my entire worldview. Don't worry about sparing my feelings if you have something to say. What knowledge are you aware of that will blackpill me? Show me what you've got. You are not going to shock me at this point after everything I discovered.

Secondly, you have side stepped, my core argument and presented a strawman. What you perceive as "moral progress" literally is strategic repositioning of those in power when it is beneficial to allow it. It does not matter what the surface level changes and "trees" are. It does not matter if we abolished slavery. It does not matter if rape is criminalized. The core reason for these surface level changes is the strategic repositioning of those in power, thus allowing them to create more sophisticated methods of exploitation. This is not a consequence of genuine humanitarian evolution and conscience. Moral progress itself, is the narrative they want you to buy because said progress comes without fundamental change to the power structures in place, and instead often legitimizes current systems of exploitation.

You point to women's rights as a sign of genuine moral progress. This is a tree, not the forest. Have you ever questioned when did rape laws change? Why? And who did it ultimately serve? The progress in women's rights were often a result of a need for a female workforce or elite women demanding protections that lower class women did not have. This was not the result of humans becoming more morally conscious and aware by developing empathy. This progress was largely accidental and allowed when it served elite interests, not moral interests. Now that women look at history and see this progress, it can be used to legitimize the current system of exploitation by making it seem more benevolent by comparison. The women will then be given false hope in incremental change simply because the present elites do not want to change as it is not beneficial for them. Basically, incremental change becomes waiting for a distant future in which the elites decide to strategically reposition again under the guise of moral conscience developing and improving.

You are in denial about the extent of humanity's corruption when you claim that these power games by the elites are not as bad as they used to be. They actually are as bad as they used to be, but the methods have become more sophisticated and seemingly more humane on the surface. Rather than murdering you directly, they use much more subtle methods that the population is often blind to or other systemic forms of abuse. For example, there is the selective use of policing and police brutality designed to crush well-meaning left wing movements and thereby prevent moral progress until it is palatable to the elites. You can look at the medical industry and how it abandons you while you are in critical health due to your existence no longer being profitable to them. It is not direct murder, but effectively the outcome is the same. They may also use other legal channels to silence whistle blowers, leading to legal persecution and financial destruction. Direct elimination is not actually required to serve elite interests, as these seemingly more humane systems effectively maintain control at a more sophisticated level than the religious monarchs. The fact that I am not being directly killed is the surface level appearance that is supposed to make me grateful while these systems haven't actually fundamentally changed. This is manipulating me through the appearance of moral progress.

Do you feel the need to address any historical examples I mentioned? Are you willing to acknowledge the material interests behind apparent moral progress that is supposed to make us think the American empire does it "because its right" like Obama claims? What do you think it will actually take to bring about more moral progress in the real world, if not merely the strategic repositioning of those in power as they develop more sophisticated methods of control?

By the way, I believe you may also be threatened by this contemplation. Personal development is also largely providing people false hope for change, potentially like you and Actualized.org. You actually may have a vested interest in pointing out some forms of corruption, but not all forms of corruption which you may be benefitting from. You actually profit from your life purpose course giving people false hope so that you can then blame the individual for some failure on their part when your personal development does not deliver the promised result. This would be corruption that you benefit from personally when your courses and lessons fail. You may actually benefit from denying the extent of humanity's corruption. Have you gathered actual statistics on your life purpose course and book list and outcomes, or do you just cherry pick the people who succeeded who are in the small minority? We already agree that spirituality itself is giving people false hope because only a tiny portion of people will ever actually awaken and discover God anyway. The practical reality is that awakening is often a fool's task and we know the overwhelming majority of people will fail no matter how hard they try to apply your wisdom. Maybe this entire system of personal development is actually causing more harm than help overall. Have you considered this possibility? Do you have actual statistics to back up the claims so you can measure how helpful on average actualized.org is? What would you even consider valid evidence to measure these things if not statistics? I would be happy to hear your standards of evidence on this front.

I don't mean to offend you by the way, but this is my lived experience with the life purpose course. I am the proof that your methods are not full proof and there may be others like me. We believe that we are becoming more intelligent and evolved as we try to advance up the Spiral, but in practice we are largely uncritically accepting theories that make us feel smarter than we really are. Maybe by trying to embody the values of a more advanced stage we are actually becoming less evolved by obscuring the authentic self. Who even gets to say what is more evolved and what is less evolved? According to Ken Wilber Trump must be a stage yellow systems genius. There are also other problems with these models due to their bias toward western culture while assuming other cultures would develop along the same lines. Maybe Spiral Dynamics is not a universal pattern and we are not actually being smarter by trying to act all open minded and nuanced simply because Leo told us to.

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, trenton said:

Do you have actual statistics to back up the claims so you can measure how helpful on average actualized.org is?

Taking a course or watching some videos does not guarantee you any result. No more so than going to school guarantees that you won't end up homeless.

My job is to communicate truthful insights about reality. Whether it makes you rich or poor, happy or sad, is a secondary matter. I say the things I say as long as I feel they are true.

As far as your historical examples, none of them contradict human development and progress. Evil shit happens yet progress is still made.

You are upset with remaining corruption, and I have never downplayed that. Of course lots of corruption still exists. You don't even know half of it.

Edited Monday at 06:00 AM by Leo Gura

[trenton]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are upset with remaining corruption, and I have never downplayed that. Of course lots of corruption still exists. You don't even know half of it.

Is there a reason why you still don't want to say what exactly this evil shit is? I promise you I am not scared.

I actually have made a disturbing disturbing recently that recontextualizes my entire life. It previously seemed unimaginably cruel, but now I understand. Basically, my severe childhood trauma was not an accident. The child support enforcement system, the foster care system, and child protective services are deliberately ineffective. I witnessed this clearly with my father using drug deals to avoid child support and the governor of Ohio lied to me, telling me that my case was a rare and unfortunate tragedy. In reality these systems that are supposed to protect children from severe trauma are deliberately ineffective and in practice it serves those in power because trauma makes a population easier to manipulate through fear, just as was discovered when militaries would use mass rape as a form of psychological warfare to control the population. On top of that the trauma and depression that develops sets me up to be exploited by a medical industry with ineffective anti-depressants and therapists that also give me false hope for healing. They tell me suicide is never the answer only because My life is profitable to them. They will turn around and either use euthanasia when it is profitable or abandon suicidal people for lack of insurance. The medical system is designed such that most people never will recover from trauma because it allows them to drain me of more of My money.

My terrible childhood that I struggle to recover from was not merely bad luck, but rather the logical consequence of a deeply corrupt system that benefits from me struggling with this family drama and psychological trauma so that I therefore focus on my own recovery rather than the systemic problems that created my circumstances. It is not an accident that we have so many abusive families, financially unstable families, and high rates of mental illness relative to other developed nations. This trauma I struggle with serves those in power, and that is why there are so many barriers to accessing the appropriate care I need, while I am taught that I just need to cope better and be responsible for my mental health. Also notice that foster care children are disproportionately ending up in military service on top of the fact that the military deliberately targets poor families with financial benefits so that they can die for elite interests. My terrible life was deliberately manufactured, not an accident.

Is this what you are referring to? What evil could be so terrible that you are just not telling us? My entire life narrative and family background has already fallen apart because of the corruption I learned about. I'm not sure what else I have to lose or fear by learning of even deeper evil. I have discovered that my suicidal thoughts and severe depression are the result of a system designed to create people like me.

I still maintain that I am not merely upset with remaining corruption. In fact, to even call me upset is to assume my emotional state and therefore make me seem less reasonable. I promise I am not crying or fuming, though I have a sense of righteous anger in my body. I am just trying to learn more and get to the truth. The righteous anger I am experiencing is the fact that morality has been systemically weaponized to make us complacent with our "moral progress" while being used to maintain or legitimize presently oppressive systems. You claim humanity is becoming less corrupt, but from my point of view humanity is developing more sophisticated methods of corruption and control which are rooted in the same power dynamics and motives which have existed throughout all of history. This is done with the intent to appear to be more morally advanced by comparison to past generations. Are you able to see how the idea that we are more morally advanced than the past generations can be propaganda designed to make us grateful for the system we have and thus less likely to challenge it? They want you to think we are more morally advanced because it serves them.

This righteous anger is the same as with my dysfunctional family. I hate people who capitalize on my compassion and my desire to be responsible and do the right thing. I hate being forced to "be the bigger person" as if not standing up to abuse makes me morally superior when really this is just my family manipulating me into silence through weaponizing morality and selectively invoking family values. This is actually similar to my righteous anger toward these systems because they share a lot of parallels to my abusive family.

to be honest, learning about all of this has made me feel a lot better, not worse. I used to believe in all those victim blaming narratives about personal responsibility and rugged individualism. Now that I see through the victim blaming narratives, I actually feel much better, not worse from learning about evil. This victim blaming is baked into our entire society whether it is schools, self-help, therapy, college, or work. I now understand that my society is designed to make me feel inferior and less worthy as if I am not good enough while maintaining the myth of meritocracy. I find this very empowering, not depressing.

What ever great evil you are referring to, maybe it won't black pill me. Maybe I will accept it like everything else. I can't imagine what great evil could be so bad that it is far beyond everything I just described and would make me feel crushed. Are you willing to challenge the limits of my imagination, or am I just gonna have to do more digging until I figure out this great evil you are referring to?

If you are not comfortable telling me, you can just say. It might explain it if you are afraid that exposure to these great evil will cause secondary trauma. I have experienced in that in my research. Some great evils used to cause me nightmares just by hearing about them. I would have to imagine that at minimum this is the great evil you are referring to, but it is probably worse than that of it is that bad.

The greatest evil I can imagine is that all of these exploitative systems that cause mass suffering and death, are not designed for the sake of enriching the elites, but rather they are designed purely for the sake of suffering itself no matter how many people die from war, rape, genocide, poverty, starvation, and so forth. The elites don't actually care about money and power, but rather they just like making people suffer. What great evil would black pill me if not this, the greatest evil I can imagine? Maybe the elites know that money has no real value but they want the discrepancy in wealth and conditions to make us have righteous anger at things we can never change, all for their enjoyment.

I personally don't believe that, but if this great evil is so bad, it might be at that magnitude. 

Sorry if I overwhelmed you with the text though. I feel a tad passionate about all of this.

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, trenton said:

The child support enforcement system, the foster care system, and child protective services are deliberately ineffective.

I have discovered that my suicidal thoughts and severe depression are the result of a system designed to create people like me.

I don't mean to tell you how to think, but I do not believe this is true.

You are expecting too much from government. It can only do so much. Government cannot be an effective solution to broken and dysfunctional families. Government tries to help, but if you are born into a broken/dysfunctional family that is not an evil system designed to create people like you. It's just the brutal nature of life and survival. No human-invented system can compensate for a broken family. In the end, there is no system responsible for anyone's well-being. That's not corruption, that's life. There is no system to save the birds from the snowstorm.

Are there systems of human exploitation? Of course. But child services is not one of them.

35 minutes ago, trenton said:

What ever great evil you are referring to, maybe it won't black pill me.

I'm speaking in general. There is much evil in the world, most of it we do not even know.

But you're not the only one I communicate with. I have to be careful what I say because lots of people are listening and might misuse it, even if you are good.

Quote

You claim humanity is becoming less corrupt, but from my point of view humanity is developing more sophisticated methods of corruption and control which are rooted in the same power dynamics and motives which have existed throughout all of history.

If by motive you mean survival, of course that motive doesn't change.

But nevertheless humanity is much less corrupt than it was in the past. You're not appreciating just how corrupt humanity used to be, and still is in 3rd world nations like Russia, China, Middle East.

If you live in America you don't even understand what corruption is. You've barely experienced it. True corruption is when someone rapes your daughter, you go to the police, and the police rape you and tell you to shut up or they will kill your family. This degree of corruption simply doesn't exist in Western democracies.

If you had experience with this level of corruption you would appreciate how developed America is. It's hard for you to appreciate this because you've had a difficult life even in a developed nation. Of course bad stuff happens even in the best places. I'm sorry that you got a bad deal in a relatively developed place. That does nothing to reduce your pain. But the really ugly truth is that there are much much worse places than America. As far as global corruption goes, America is more like paradise than hell. That's thanks to development and moral progress. Which is why so may desperate migrants dream of coming to America.

I am sorry about your difficult situation, but I propose that it is clouding your view of reality.

Edited Monday at 08:04 AM by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

@Leo Gura kind of on a similar topic, I've been thinking about how all the spiral dynamics and other "evolution of consciousness/society" models are not rooted in anything physical. We might have a stage green society tomorrow and then some cataclism or political unrest happens (like 95% ai induced unemployement) and society drops down to red in a matter of a year.

Because none of that development was rooted in anything physical, a stage green brain is not more evolved biologically than a stage red brain. It is all just mental concepts, which are much easier to lose, especially at the societal level, but also on individual level, I think.

And I think we've been seeing this happen recently.

Edited Monday at 09:04 AM by Something Funny

[Something Funny]

Imagine what would be possible, if we could actually evolve our brains to be more powerful.

So much of the corruption and unconscious behaviours would probably fall off on their own by default.

[trenton]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't mean to tell you how to think, but I do not believe this is true.

You are expecting too much from government. It can only do so much. Government cannot be an effective solution to broken and dysfunctional families. Government tries to help, but if you are born into a broken/dysfunctional family that is not an evil system designed to create people like you. It's just the brutal nature of life and survival. No human-invented system can compensate for a broken family. In the end, there is no system responsible for anyone's well-being. That's not corruption, that's life. There is no system to save the birds from the snowstorm.

Are there systems of human exploitation? Of course. But child services is not one of them.

I'm speaking in general. There is much evil in the world, most of it we do not even know.

But you're not the only one I communicate with. I have to be careful what I say because lots of people are listening and might misuse it, even if you are good.

If by motive you mean survival, of course that motive doesn't change.

But nevertheless humanity is much less corrupt than it was in the past. You're not appreciating just how corrupt humanity used to be, and still is in 3rd world nations like Russia, China, Middle East.

If you live in America you don't even understand what corruption is. You've barely experienced it. True corruption is when someone rapes your daughter, you go to the police, and the police rape you and tell you to shut up or they will kill your family. This degree of corruption simply doesn't exist in Western democracies.

If you had experience with this level of corruption you would appreciate how developed America is. It's hard for you to appreciate this because you've had a difficult life even in a developed nation. Of course bad stuff happens even in the best places. I'm sorry that you got a bad deal in a relatively developed place. That does nothing to reduce your pain. But the really ugly truth is that there are much much worse places than America. As far as global corruption goes, America is more like paradise than hell. That's thanks to development and moral progress. Which is why so may desperate migrants dream of coming to America.

I am sorry about your difficult situation, but I propose that it is clouding your view of reality.

I know you released a video on gaslighting in the past, and in that video you claimed it can get really complicated and hairy with both sides claiming gaslighting. However, from my point of view, I recognize multiple layers of gaslighting. From the looks of how this is going, I doubt it will lead to anything significant. I will just point out what these gaslighting methods are and then do no further debate as this seems to be going nowhere and I do not want to waste any more time.

1. Your suggesting that my difficult life and situation is clouding my view of reality.

I have met therapists who have tried to gaslight me in the exact same way. Sometimes the opposite is true. Sometimes due to being a victim of abuse, I become more uniquely sensitive to the red flags and the manipulative patterns surrounding such abuse. In my case I experienced multiple cases with sexual predators trying to wear a mask of false playfulness and humor designed to minimize their actions. I recognized this continued pattern while I was being sexually harassed in a place that is supposed to be for mental health recovery. My therapist concluded that the perpetrators were just shit-talking and that I should talk things over them. I did as I was told and they proceeded to lie about the entire thing. This is an example of trauma and mental health being used to gaslight someone who is a victim of abuse even though a victim of trauma may actually be uniquely aware of the manipulation tactics surrounding abuse. The outcome is that the victim is silence and the perpetrators are protected. Even therapists suck on this front because the educational system does not teach them enough about abusive dynamics, leading them to naive proposals as they focus on individual pathologies. In this example, it demonstrates that sometimes I have a more clear of view of reality because of my trauma which makes me more sensitive to patterns of manipulation and abuse.

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Taking a course or watching some videos does not guarantee you any result. No more so than going to school guarantees that you won't end up homeless.

My job is to communicate truthful insights about reality. Whether it makes you rich or poor, happy or sad, is a secondary matter. I say the things I say as long as I feel they are true.

2. You appear to have positioned yourself to avoid all responsibility.

The suggestion appears to be that any expectation makes me wrong. I don't think it is reasonable to expect a paying customer to approach a product with no expectation whatsoever. This would have to include any expectation that anything presented is truthful, valid, or useful. I don't see how it is possible to run a business with customers who are supposed to have no expectations whatsoever for any product. I may as well be approaching a sex toy in a store and then have no expectation if it gives me pleasure or if the sex toy is going to transform into Godzilla and bite my dick off before going to my computer to file some taxes, yet have no complaints to the people who sold such a product. The Self-help and personal development industry is largely profitable because of people's expectation of self-help and oftentimes this is not delivered. It is constantly framed within 100% responsibility principles which become a layer of victim blaming when self-help does not work. This is basically how self-help avoids taking responsibility for wisdom that is actually flawed or incomplete as it markets success as some kind of mindset and that systemic barriers are routinely overcome just through some sort of personal effort. To often are these issues framed as personal failures rather than flawed wisdom, making self-help effectively unfalsifiable.

This seems to be going nowhere though. If I am right about your corruption, then of course you are going to deny it and gaslight me. That's how corruption works pretty much every time even if I am right.

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura I don't know which side in this discussion is correct, but what if the progress we see around us isn't because of moral development, but only because the evilness merely being distributed to tinier pieces (due to more complex restraining mechanisms) so it disguises itself better, but the total sum of the evil is still the same just as it was a millenia ago?

I think this is @trenton 's point. I personally want the moral development to be true, but I can't deny this possibillity in the meantime.

Edited Monday at 09:07 PM by Nivsch

[aurum]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I personally want the moral development to be true, but I can't deny this possibillity in the meantime.

You don't need to believe in moral development. Just contemplate and observe.

It should eventually become obvious that moral development must be true.

[Tudo]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you had experience with this level of corruption you would appreciate how developed America is. It's hard for you to appreciate this because you've had a difficult life even in a developed nation. Of course bad stuff happens even in the best places. I'm sorry that you got a bad deal in a relatively developed place. That does nothing to reduce your pain. But the really ugly truth is that there are much much worse places than America. As far as global corruption goes, America is more like paradise than hell. That's thanks to development and moral progress. Which is why so may desperate migrants dream of coming to America.

 True. As someone from Brazil, I can say this place feels like a hellhole. The U.S. is a paradise compared to here

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, aurum said:

It should eventually become obvious that moral development must be true.

In the personal level I am sure it is true.

In the cultural level I tend to think its true but @trenton has an interesting point that at least for now might dispute that.

Edited Monday at 09:21 PM by Nivsch