Israel launches attack on Iran

[zazen]

44 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Don't make it your nation's highest purpose to destroy another nation who is close allies with a superpower.

The audacity of a country for not wanting to submit to a superpower unable to have power besides or ahead of others but insists on having power over others. I agree that their rhetoric doesn't help - but I don't think its their sole purpose to eviscerate Americans and Israelis either. Its more political talk and symbolic defiance, more geopolitical rather than genocidal. When they chant ''Death to America'' aren't they referring to the system of imperialism and domination mainly?

Israel is the local muscle platforming the forward base for that empire, beyond its own goals of denying Palestinian statehood. It would be good to solve the Palestinian question, but even better if it didn't continue to exist as a platform for that superpowers regional dominance, and then have to suffer for it in perpetual fear and blood. I'm sure Israel has its own ambitions of regional domination but they stem more from a distorted survival logic, rather than empire logic.

That's what blurs the lines of who's behind imperial actions in the Middle East - people debate if it's Israel dictating things or the the US, and then come all the conspiracies. It's possible both interests are served - Israels survival, US's dominance. Though Israels survival is more at risk and is more existential than the US's dominance which is a geopolitical luxury - that should play into Israels calculations on how it wants to exist in the region.

 

Edited June 17 by zazen

[Jodistrict]

Trump sold himself as the peace candidate.  But now it is obvious that it was all a lie.  The neocons win no matter who is in charge.  War in unpredictable and if an Iran quagmire brings down Trump like it brought down Carter, it will be worth it. 

[Leo Gura]

Quite clear the CIA and Mossad are plotting to overthrow the Iranian regime through assassination and funding opposition groups.

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, zazen said:

The audacity of a country for not wanting to submit to a superpower unable to have power besides or ahead of others but insists on having power over others. I agree that their rhetoric doesn't help - but I don't think its their sole purpose to eviscerate Americans and Israelis either. Its more political talk and symbolic defiance, more geopolitical rather than genocidal. When they chant ''Death to America'' aren't they referring to the system of imperialism and domination mainly?

Israel is the local muscle platforming the forward base for that empire, beyond its own goals of denying Palestinian statehood. It would be good to solve the Palestinian question, but even better if it didn't continue to exist as a platform for that superpowers regional dominance, and then have to suffer for it in perpetual fear and blood. I'm sure Israel has its own ambitions of regional domination but they stem more from a distorted survival logic, rather than empire logic.

That's what blurs the lines of who's behind imperial actions in the Middle East - people in the West debate that is Israel dictating things rather than the US, and then come all the conspiracies. It's possible both interests are served - Israels survival, US's dominance. Though Israels survival is more at risk and is more existential than the US's dominance which is a geopolitical luxury - that should play into Israels calculations on how it wants to exist in the region.

 

All nations involved are belligerents in your own words and in their own ways. There are no "good guys" here. 

Iran's actions are not just rhetoric. They have horrendous conditions for their citizens, tons of domestic issues yet they divert a large percentage of their funds towards militant groups whose main purpose is to torment and destroy Israel. We demonize Israel for having theoretical imperial aspirations, yet Iran literally is imperial, has proxies all over the Middle East and we want to put them on some kind of high horse.

If Iran wasn't so obsessed with Israel, no one would care if they had nukes. They probably would have had them decades ago.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

POV: You wake up in Tel Aviv

https://files.catbox.moe/vclxxr.mp4

[zazen]

26 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Iran's actions are not just rhetoric. They have horrendous conditions for their citizens, tons of domestic issues yet they divert a large percentage of their funds towards militant groups whose main purpose is to torment and destroy Israel. We demonize Israel for having theoretical imperial aspirations, yet Iran literally is imperial, has proxies all over the Middle East and we want to put them on some kind of high horse

Agreed there's domestic issues, just doesn't give imperial actors moral license to do as they wish.

It's like a chicken or the egg situation of who caused it. Timeline wise it looks more like Iran is reacting to the West than the other way round. Mossadegh was couped by CIA/MI6 in 1953 because he nationalized Iranian oil, then came the Western backed Shah who was known to be brutal (his secret police SAVAK was trained by the CIA and Mossad), he was overthrown in the revolution, then US backed Saddams invasion of Iran in the 80's, post 2000's US bases encircle Iran in Iraq and Afghanistan, besides already existing along the gulf.

Iran seems to be responding to imperialism more than being imperialistic itself. Its more reactive than offensive. Its forced to play asymmetrical defense and deterrence via proxies because it doesn’t have the military or economic weight to match the US / Israel alliance. The US doesn't need proxies because its muscle does the job directly with its own bases, fleets and carrier groups.

Edited June 17 by zazen

[PurpleTree]

25 minutes ago, hundreth said:

All nations involved are belligerents in your own words and in their own ways. There are no "good guys" here. 

Iran's actions are not just rhetoric. They have horrendous conditions for their citizens, tons of domestic issues yet they divert a large percentage of their funds towards militant groups whose main purpose is to torment and destroy Israel. We demonize Israel for having theoretical imperial aspirations, yet Iran literally is imperial, has proxies all over the Middle East and we want to put them on some kind of high horse.

If Iran wasn't so obsessed with Israel, no one would care if they had nukes. They probably would have had them decades ago.

Greater Israel? Iraq, Syria etc.

 

Gaza?

Genocide? (I hate that word but you warmonger shills make me use it)

 

Greta

Thunberg

 

Edited June 17 by PurpleTree

[PurpleTree]

@hundreth

What came after that 100‘000 deaths, Isis, Syria

[Atb210201]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

Can you please explain more what you mean?

Well there is a conspiracy theory here that's saying it is all a show and Israel has lots of spies in Iran and that the regime in Iran right now is in the hands of 5 intelligence agencies of the world Britain, France, Germany, Israel and US Democrates mostly basically "The Globalists".

Which means the people on top are just puppets and not really Muslims they are just spies faking it and they're actually just stealing all the resources of this land and it is a very rich land.

Basically it is all just a show to steal from the people what is rightfully theirs.

And all this is just a show to put their next player in charge of Iran and continue stealing.

Edited June 17 by Atb210201

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

Well there is a conspiracy theory here that's saying it is all a show and Israel has lots of spies in Iran and that the regime in Iran right now is in the hands of 5 intelligence agencies of the world Britain, France, Germany, Israel and US Democrates mostly basically "The Globalists".

Which means the people on top are just puppets and not really Muslims they are just spies faking it and they're actually just stealing all the resources of this land and it is a very rich land.

Basically it is all just a show to steal from the people what is rightfully theirs.

And all this is just a show to put their next player in charge of Iran and continue stealing.

Sounds like utter hogwash. 

[Atb210201]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

Sounds like utter hogwash. 

I don't think so.

It might actually be true.

All they do just hurts people more not themselves.

They're not even trying to actually eliminate each other, just saying they will but not doing it.

[PurpleTree]

13 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

I don't think so.

It might actually be true.

All they do just hurts people more not themselves.

They're not even trying to actually eliminate each other, just saying they will but not doing it.

It’s not even a good conspiracy theory it’s a really bad one. Germany? Where’s your proof? 

[Atb210201]

2 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

It’s not even a good conspiracy theory it’s a really bad one. Germany? Where’s your proof? 

I don't know I've just heard its name in the list of Globalists.

But the idea seems plausible.

Edited June 17 by Atb210201

[Raze]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

Is that a serious question? They were thwarted by Israel each time. Stuxnet, bombing campaigns, and yes - diplomacy too. Governments are always juggling 100s of priorities. Obama convinced them sanctions relief would be better than continuing their program. Perhaps it was a great move. 

Those attacks weakened and slowed the program, but they never stopped them from eventually getting weapons if that’s what they chose to do.

They never did. The diplomacy example proves this.

Their strategy is transparently to maintain latent nuclear capability. 

Edited June 17 by Raze

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

I don't know I've just heard its name in the list of Globalists.

But the idea seems plausible.

Where’s proof?

[Husseinisdoingfine]

How the Mossad took out Iran's air defense:

 

[Raze]

https://www.972mag.com/iran-israel-war-ori-goldberg/
 

Quote

To help make sense of Israel’s motivations in opening up a new front and assess what the coming days and weeks might bring, +972 spoke with Ori Goldberg, a leading Israeli academic and political commentator who has spent years studying the Iranian regime.

The interview has been edited for length and clarity.

Why do you think Israel decided to launch a full-scale war against Iran right now, considering it’s already in a multi-front, multi-year war with an overstretched reserve army?

Netanyahu’s claim that the attack was about preventing an immediate threat to Israeli national security is not just facetious, it’s fictitious. I think it was really an attempt to realign the world behind Israel. 

The reason Netanyahu felt he had to do that, even at the cost of starting a full-fledged war, was that Israel had exhausted pretty much all of its options in Gaza after a nearly two-year long genocidal campaign. From military action that has failed to return the hostages, to the new Gaza Humanitarian Foundation “aid centers” [that have so far failed to facilitate widespread ethnic cleansing] — nothing Israel was doing in Gaza seemed to catch on. So Netanyahu did what he has done throughout the past two years: open up another front.

Iran was much easier for him [than other fronts] because the idea that the Islamic Republic must be dealt with using military means is perhaps the broadest, most solid consensus in Israeli politics. I think Netanyahu wanted to make political gains and ensure his personal status and future — above all, postponing his trial — as well as try to drag the world into this conflict by forcing, at the very least, the United States to side with Israel.

By the way, an attack this elaborate, with so many people outside Iran and people operating inside Iran to deploy drones — this could not have been in response to an imminent threat; it has obviously been planned for years. So it was a question of timing, and timing is always political.

Having launched the attack, do you think Netanyahu is now aiming to force a new nuclear agreement on better terms, to bring about regime change, or something else?

It’s everything and nothing. I think the truth is Israel isn’t committed to any one of those goals. And it’s good to have multiple goals, because if you don’t succeed in one, you can always point at another and say, “This is what I was actually trying to do.”

Strategically, Israel’s only real MO — as always — appears to be targeted assassinations of senior IRGC leaders. The drone attacks and bombings haven’t neutralized Iran’s entire array of air defenses. Israel has now issued evacuation orders for neighborhoods in Tehran; it seems to think Tehran is Beirut or Gaza.

According to the national security strategy that Netanyahu seems to be promoting, success looks like Israel being able to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, without paying a price. Iran posed the biggest challenge in that respect, so Netanyahu basically said to the rest of the world, “I’ll see you and raise you — I’ll start a war with Iran.” That’s why I think all of this is happening.

Meanwhile, Iran is making its own calculations. I think it understands that it’s better in the medium- and long-term to absorb Israel’s aggression, demonstrating that it has the resolve to withstand such pressure, than to go all out and enter a suicidal war that it can’t win.

Still, Iran is firing missiles that are getting through Israel’s air defenses and killing Israelis on a nightly basis. They are making the entire country sleepless. I haven’t slept in four nights, and I’m as afraid as I’ve been in a while.

How significant were the initial Israeli strikes on Iran targeting senior military leaders and scientists? And how significant have the subsequent attacks been now that Iran has its defenses up?

Israel’s strategy of targeted assassinations has never worked apart from in the very short term. My sense is that the Islamic Republic’s leadership is back on track. This is not Hezbollah, where if you kill Hassan Nasrallah then you’ve really decapitated the organization.

So while the attack was very elaborate and sophisticated with multiple fronts and multiple targets, which took Iran by surprise, Israel nevertheless overreached — exactly as it did in Gaza. And with every day that passes, Israel gets further bogged down.

While it’s true that Israel has established aerial dominance, Iran has yet to deploy the heaviest missiles in its arsenal. And it has shown that it is not averse to firing with intent to kill civilians, despite mostly aiming at military targets.

Given the unprecedented level of destruction, human casualties, and fear inside Israel right now, how sustainable do you gauge this situation to be? Especially given that much of the Israeli economy isn’t really functioning, and the airport remains closed.

So far, most of the casualties have been old people, refugees from Ukraine, and Palestinians — people who are very much at the periphery of Israeli society. So the real sense of impending death is still far away. But the images [of the destruction] really are unprecedented.

I don’t see Israeli public opinion shifting significantly. The entire country is thirsty for a win after failing so abysmally in Gaza. But I also see Israelis generally drifting away from politics, and moving into personal survival mode: they will line up and buy supplies, they will not go to work, they will care for their kids, and generally do what has to be done. But I don’t see them rushing to enlist for a ground war against Iran.

Do you see a ground war as realistic?

Israel is now at a stage where its strategy is based on constant escalation. It always has to turn the volume up. And the only way to turn the volume up now is to insert special operations troops into Iran, or perform a [full-scale] ground invasion.

I understand that Israel’s elite 98th division was taken out of Gaza and told to prepare for the expansion of war with Iran. But while that’s all great rhetoric, I don’t see it happening. I think a ground war is the most unrealistic option of all. Basically, Israel overreached, and it is now stuck.

How do you see the war with Iran affecting the ongoing war in Gaza and negotiations with Hamas?

There are reports that Iran has approached both Israel and the United States through third parties to initiate talks to end the war. If the Iranians are smart, they will demand that Trump force Israel to sign an agreement that will end the war in Gaza too. I think the end of the war in Gaza and the end of the war with Iran are intimately connected — not because the Iranians are great patrons of the Palestinians, but because of Israel.

The real test for the international community is reigning Israel in. Israel has gone completely rogue: it feels like it has absolutely nothing to lose, that it’s setting its own rules and does whatever it wants. So this is about the international community stepping in and saying, “If you keep doing this, you’re going to be the new South Africa, at the very least.”

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu poses for a picture with French President Emmanuel Macron at the Prime Minister’s Residence in Jerusalem, January 22, 2020. (Marc Israel Sellem/POOL)

However, I don’t know if the world is up to the task. [Western leaders] are still saying that Israel has the right to defend itself. [French President] Emmanuel Macron said it, [UK Prime Minister] Keir Starmer said it, and of course [Germany’s Chancellor] Friedrich Merz said it. But I think in this case, it’s less about rhetoric and more about action. 

At this point Netanyahu both doesn’t care anymore, and is firmly convinced that Israeli security is dependent on this complete freedom of action to do whatever it wants without paying a price.

How do you see the war evolving over the coming days or weeks? What are the best- and worst-case scenarios?

I’m not sure what the English equivalent is to the Hebrew expression להשתין מהמקפצה [“pissing from the diving board,” meaning acting brazenly], but Israel really is doing just that. It’s doing whatever the hell it wants, with absolutely no regard for anybody else’s interests. And that includes the United States.

I don’t think this war will be over in days, but I think it’s sensible to assume that as we head into next week there will already be talks about ending it. I don’t think Israel will be allowed to enjoy total impunity for much longer. There are going to be calls to answer for at least some of what it has been doing. 

Nobody’s bought the whole “preventive strike” narrative. So I think, at least to some extent, Israel is going to have to suffer the consequences of its actions.

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

We demonize Israel for having theoretical imperial aspirations, yet Iran literally is imperial,

Theoretical? Are West Bank settlements theoretical? Is invasion of Syria theoretical?

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

 

If Iran wasn't so obsessed with Israel, no one would care if they had nukes. They probably would have had them decades ago.

The US was trying to strangle them with sanctions and arming Saddam while he gassed them long before they seriously got involved with the Israel issue. 
 

 

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

Don't make it your nation's highest purpose to destroy another nation who is close allies with a superpower.

Let’s say the same to israel then. If you don’t like terror attacks and foreign countries arming rebel groups don’t make your national purpose occupying millions of people and seizing their land.

[Atb210201]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Where’s proof?

Don't have them just a gut feeling that it might actually be true.

Although the ones saying it also say that they've got proofs but I haven't seen one yet.

[Twentyfirst]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

Don't make it your nation's highest purpose to destroy another nation who is close allies with a superpower.

You really think that the highest purpose of Iran is to destroy Israel? 

No, you are only saying that to justify Israels aggression 

Israels purpose is literally to destroy nations because thats the only way it gets money from its superpower ally