Are men or women the prize?

[Raze]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

A man who is really in love with a woman will see her as someone he values like a prize. And he will be very invested in her and will try to do things to win her over and progress the relationship... or just to add something to her life.

Issue with that is she can view that as him trying to supplicate and buy her affection, and she’ll get the ick and reject at the drop of a hat if she gets a whiff of any neediness from him.

I heard a story about a guy taking a PUA training and he was approaching women trying to woo them and getting rejected one after the other, then the instructor banned him from being allowed to take a woman’s number or take her to his room, basically banning him from actually getting any result with a woman, and suddenly women were interested in him, as he finally started interacting with them without seeking an outcome.

Edited June 7 by Raze

[CARDOZZO]

Woman love to pursue, venerate and pedestalize man. 

They are crazy about it. 

But... the guy MUST BE the GUY, the ONE that she is obsessive about, think about, dream about. 

 

[CARDOZZO]

Can you see what kinds of men are put on a pedestal on modern culture?

I bet it is not nice guys. Guys who play by the rules? No way.

[CARDOZZO]

Women will never assume what they want. That is a fact. 

Discover for yourself, do not listen to anyone, go to the field, contemplate, test.

The most sad thing about that is: women do not have a choice, they can't fight million years of evolution, it is a brutal force.

 

Edited June 7 by CARDOZZO

[Atb210201]

None of you guys are in any serious relationship are you?

What's with all this prize thing lol.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

17 minutes ago, Atb210201 said:

None of you guys are in any serious relationship are you?

What's with all this prize thing lol.

There are 2 groups of perspective being argued here, and getting mixed up. 

1) Those not in a relationship and participating in the attraction phase.

2) Those within a relationship and the frame being honouring each other in wholeness.

These 2 frames aren't made clear so it's all a big mess! 

[aurum]

2 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

I find it healthiest for attraction, when I am focused on my mission and life purpose and she takes a more supportive wife/gf/partner role. Not saying that she cannot have her own career, but that her ambitions are nowhere near as high as mine.

But I am an extremely ambitious person.

But you could fit that within her frame.

In the situation you're describing, you would be doing the leading and handling most of her survival. All of that is investment. Which arguably makes her the "prize".

[LordFall]

It's mostly a bad question. Love and a satisfying life/relationship are the prize. I don't see how seeing yourself as superior to women as the original question is phrased is helpful in achieving that goal or even to build more value as a man.

 

[Atb210201]

39 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There are 2 groups of perspective being argued here, and getting mixed up. 

1) Those not in a relationship and participating in the attraction phase.

2) Those within a relationship and the frame being honouring each other in wholeness.

These 2 frames aren't made clear so it's all a big mess! 

Yes I agree to some extent.

But even in the attraction phase I'd say there is no point in thinking who is the prize here, just honesty will do everything for everyone.

It's not about who is the prize; It's all about honesty at the end of the day.

Edited June 7 by Atb210201

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Atb210201 said:

Yes I agree to some extent.

But even in the attraction phase I'd say there is no point in thinking who is the prize here, just honesty will do everything for everyone.

It's not about who is the prize; It's all about honesty at the end of the day.

You said it man - this is at the root of it. 

I think I raised this initially also, but users wanted to entertain discourse 😊

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Raze said:

Issue with that is she can view that as him trying to supplicate and buy her affection, and she’ll get the ick and reject at the drop of a hat if she gets a whiff of any neediness from him.

I heard a story about a guy taking a PUA training and he was approaching women trying to woo them and getting rejected one after the other, then the instructor banned him from being allowed to take a woman’s number or take her to his room, basically banning him from actually getting any result with a woman, and suddenly women were interested in him, as he finally started interacting with them without seeking an outcome.

This is not what I mean by the woman being the prize. That's just describing a man being needy and attached to the woman, which are two different things. 

Of course, if a man is desperate and pedestalizing the woman... she's not going to like that.

So, it's not about what happens in the first few months of a relationship before her feelings for him are established. That's where the miscommunication is coming from because the guys on this forum tend to be thinking of the initial attraction phase of dating.

This is what works best after the woman has already established feelings and desire to be in a relationship with the guy and there is already a sexual relationship that's been established.

So, it's a longer-running dynamic than that and doesn't have very much to do with the initial attraction phase.

And this is a subtle dynamic that you can see in many couples, as it tends to be a common pattern that men and women fall into.

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

@Emerald Got it.

From my own experience tho, I would say for the attraction to remain healthy in a serious long-term relationship, the girl should invest slightly more.

I find it healthiest for attraction, when I am focused on my mission and life purpose and she takes a more supportive wife/gf/partner role. Not saying that she cannot have her own career, but that her ambitions are nowhere near as high as mine.

But I am an extremely ambitious person.

That actually describes you investing more because you'd be presumably contributing the lion's share of the finances to the home. So, that's a lot of investing in her.

And that means that you're going to be working towards your mission with her as the beneficiary of the fruits of your labors... and that means that you'd have to value her enough to do so.

And that's what I mean by the "prize".

To take it out of a romantic context... when I make money from my business, it's meaningful because I get to invest in my children who are my "prize". And that's a big part of what makes my efforts worthwhile because I love them and value them just because they exist.

They're my little precious gems. And I will work hard to make sure that they are given the best life I can afford.

And I'm sure that a man who wants to be the primary bread-winner would need to love and value his wife (and children) as the "prize" so that his work and the fruits of his labors become more meaningful because of his mission to create a stable space for his family.

Like, if I suddenly didn't have children or a husband and they just disappeared from existence... and it was just me, I wouldn't find the financial element of my business as meaningful because I derive a lot of meaning from being a breadwinner for my family. 

And that's a wonderful Masculine-principled quality to have as it is an embodiment of the Lover archetype. But you must value those you are breadwinning for on the level of being.

This is a dynamic that tends to naturally arise when a man loves his partner.

Edited June 8 by Emerald

[BlessedLion]

30 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And that means that you're going to be working towards your mission with her as the beneficiary of the fruits of your labors... and that means that you'd have to value her enough to do so.

And that's what I mean by the "prize".

I was also wondering about your earlier posts on this but this helps clear it up. 
 

It sounded a bit like the man needs to be constantly striving for his woman’s approval to be satisfied in a relationship (her being the prize) but this sounds exhausting and constantly out of reach. Like always trying to make mommy happy - It seems like a place of trauma and neediness. 
 

Because what if a man doesn’t need to get her validation and is confident in what he’s doing with or without a woman? 
 

But seeing it as her being the prize as the chosen women who gets to benefit from his life purpose and discipline is different. That sounds more like just giving your Queen the best life which I’m totally about. 
 

I do think there’s a place where it’s just balanced (you bring feminine energy I bring masculine) not one person winning and the other settling- but maybe that’s too idealistic.

[Atb210201]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

You said it man - this is at the root of it. 

I think I raised this initially also, but users wanted to entertain discourse 😊

Well they're free to do so.

It's alright.

We know the truth in our hearts, all of us.

Edited June 8 by Atb210201

[Emerald]

19 minutes ago, BlessedLion said:

I was also wondering about your earlier posts on this but this helps clear it up. 
 

It sounded a bit like the man needs to be constantly striving for his woman’s approval to be satisfied in a relationship (her being the prize) but this sounds exhausting and constantly out of reach. Like always trying to make mommy happy - It seems like a place of trauma and neediness. 
 

Because what if a man doesn’t need to get her validation and is confident in what he’s doing with or without a woman? 
 

But seeing it as her being the prize as the chosen women who gets to benefit from his life purpose and discipline is different. That sounds more like just giving your Queen the best life which I’m totally about. 
 

I do think there’s a place where it’s just balanced (you bring feminine energy I bring masculine) not one person winning and the other settling- but maybe that’s too idealistic.

Like I said, this dynamic is subtle and is one that men and women tend to naturally fall into in a long-term relationship.

It's more akin to a husband fixing the sink to help his wife and her appreciating his efforts than it is anything super extreme.

The best partnerships are quite eye-to-eye. But the Masculine/Feminine polarity is there when the man is more of the doer/leader and she is more of receiver/appreciator of his doing.

So, that's what I mean by the woman being the prize and the man being the leader. It's just the Lover and Beloved archetype playing out in subtle ways in a relationship.

But don't imagine anything too crazy or extreme. This has to happen in the context of a relatively equal partnership for it work out well or it won't work out.

But for women in particular, it's really important to avoid pedestalizing the guy... and to not stick around in a relationship where the guy isn't as invested as you are.

Things should either be equal or the guy should invest a bit more that you.

Never stick around with a guy who feels lukewarm about you.

[PenguinPablo]

On 6/5/2025 at 3:04 PM, aurum said:

That's very diplomatic and safe.

I guess if you're caught up in power struggle style of relating, sure.

 

[AION]

If you go to a prostitute and you pay her, it doesn’t make her the prize. In the same way you can go out with a girl and pay for the date. And it doesn’t make her the prize. 

It can or it cannot. It is independent of provision. 

What somebody makes the prize is the mental battle and who got the dominant mental frame.  

The mental frame is superior to what you do or do not. 

That is why there are broke guys and can’t provision but they are still seen the prize because he has such a strong mental frame and the girl is submissive to that mental frame. As long as you don’t break your frame she will be in submission. That is why guys get away with a lot of shit. 

Most girls are naturally ok with the guy having the dominant mental frame. In fact they want it and most guys can’t hold that frame. It is only the ladies that have been ruffled by these dominant guys who reject the men being the prize.
Happy feminine girls with who have bfs all accept their man being the prize because they wouldn’t want a guy who is not the prize because that would mean she would have to look down and she wants to look up, literally and figuratively. 

Edited June 8 by AION

[Xonas Pitfall]

On 6/6/2025 at 5:54 PM, AION said:

@Xonas Pitfall I won’t answer that question because it is too sensitive for this forum. 

I’d genuinely be curious to hear more, because this is something I often find confusing in these spaces. There’s a lot of talk about how women are supposedly cruel or have a "dark" nature compared to men. As if all they want is to constantly jump from one richer, taller, more attractive guy to the next, with no regard for the person they’re currently with. But in reality, men can be just as dark - it’s a human thing, not a gendered one.

You see husbands leaving their wives when they get sick, gain weight, grow older, or start earning more. There are also higher rates of domestic violence and violent crime committed by men. So it seems clear to me that both genders have selfish tendencies and biases when it comes to relationships.

Humans naturally want what they want, and that can lead to cruelty or manipulation, regardless of gender. It ultimately comes down to character and whether someone chooses to act with integrity.

So when people frame this as a uniquely “female” issue, I just don’t see it. Female hypergamy is about what women tend to find attractive. Male hypergamy is about what men find attractive. Both genders try to get the best partner they can, and both fear being the one who’s settling, or worse, being settled for or cheated on.

That’s why I question the heavy focus on "female nature" being darker. It feels like it misses the broader point - that this is all part of human nature. I’d be curious to hear your perspective on that!

[AION]

@Xonas Pitfall you shouldn’t be thrown off by the word dominant. You could also use the word “with more conviction”. So if you have a mental frame with more conviction than somebody else you will be leading reality. 

Don’t make it more complicated than it is. What I typed described is the linchpin in social dynamics which is (mental) frame control. I haven’t found any good sources on this topic so I have my own research. 

About the nature of men and women; there is a fundamental difference in terms of the nature of the sexes. I won’t be sharing it here on this forum because it is too sensitive and it will fall on deaf ears anyway. So I prefer to be socially calibrated and focus on my own development. 

Edited June 8 by AION

[Alexop]

6 hours ago, Emerald said:

 

The best partnerships are quite eye-to-eye. But the Masculine/Feminine polarity is there when the man is more of the doer/leader and she is more of receiver/appreciator of his doing.

 

Yes. And this is what these gender blind people miss. The man is actually happier if he does more and receives appreciation.

Like imagine the woman being unemployed and the man worked the whole day like a slave. When he came home, her woman said she enjoyed her day a lot by reading novels and talking to her friends and she appreciates a lot the hard work that he does. Thet compliment might change his whole day for the better.

Now imagine the mirror opposite case. No matter how much appreciation he would give to her, her blood would still boil by seeing him being supported by her hard work and him just enjoying his day.

She would be like: "yea yea thanks, did you search for some job today? have you washed the dishes? Have you cooked something? What is all this mess?