Are men or women the prize?

[Nemra]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Contemplate what femininity is and why it is how it is.

Now the question is more clear.

I can provide some attributes based on my observation.

However, I don't actually know why it is how it is.

Edited June 7 by Nemra

[aurum]

3 hours ago, Emerald said:

I do think that's where the miscommunication is coming from.

And there's a lot of assumptions that I mean a desperate chasing the woman or supplication of one's self to the woman. A man must have self-respect and boundaries as well or that will be repulsive. And he cannot make the woman the center of his life as he has to have other things that he's got going on.

And a man should still be detached from her even as he sees her as the prize, and willing to do the right thing for all parties involved even if it means losing her. So, cherishing a woman as the prize doesn't mean making his entire life about her. In fact, it's the opposite.

It's in him knowing there is no scarcity of "prizes". And being fully willing to let the prize go if that's the right thing. Non-attachment is key.

And what the guys are talking about on the thread is also looking at this on too short of a timeline. And it's not surprising because I get the sense that none of these men have been married or had a really longterm live-in relationship.

So, they're calibrating themselves to the first few months or year of a relationship... of which it's important to go slowly and not jump the gun. And there should be a mutual element of push and pull.

But what I'm referring to is a slight imbalance in a long-term relationship where the guy is highly invested in the particular woman and there is a continued space of tension and pursuit where the woman loves him deeply but isn't 100% impressed or won over by him, where her admiration is conditioned upon his actions and his character.

And that gives space for the man to show up in his life and for her and to be appreciated and earn her respect through either achieving something relative to his individualistic goals or by investing in her, because it gives him something to do and be appreciated for.

For example, a man who is invested in his wife or longterm partner may put in efforts to show up for her and help her because he values her and sees her as the prize. And men who really care about the women they're with just tend to naturally do this as lots of men show people that they care about them through acts of service.

But if the woman sees him as the prize, there is no space for her to appreciate his doing and his Masculinity. Instead, she will see him as her precious gem just for existing and appreciating him on the level of his Feminine.

And lots of men have this fantasy... especially the ones that feel a sense of scarcity or feel unworthy of love. But in reality, they don't enjoy being treated like a woman's precious gem.

And for a man, it will be like a game that's too easy to win, and it will lose its meaning.

And men don't like that, as men want to "win her over" and be appreciated and respected for their investments and legwork.

And you can't win over a woman who sees you as the prize because she is already won over. And the value of her admiration goes down because it's like getting applause when you haven't done anything challenging or special to earn it.

But women tend to do best when they're valued as the prize on the level of being for who she is... rather than things that she does.

In contrast, men tend to do best when they are loved on the level of being as a baseline.... but are valued, respected, and appreciated for what they do.

And that's why it's not a good idea for the man to be the prize.

This was a really good articulation.

I think that works well if both parties have secure attachment and are ready for a mature, grounded relationship.

But if they need the chase for things to be exciting and have tension, that can derail things.

There is some tradeoff between excitement and groundedness. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Bingo.

Leo's Pussy Rorschach Test

What does Pussy mean to you?

She's a sparrow, very well behaved in her little cage. Very virtuous, playful, but with serious intent. That is until a male sparrow shows up who peaks her intellectual curiosity. Punctuated with emotion, which is her favorite flavor, then ensues an exchange of pennies. Ideas, feelings. After a time of this exchange, she figures maybe she will invest some dollars? See what is returned? And lo! It is worth the investment. 

She takes a risk and leaves her cage, to play with another in delight. This sparrow feeds on the play. On the delectable feelings. She is mining and harvesting emotion, the key to ignite her, bound within the safety of her male sparrow. 

And so they dance, and the key to their dance is the momentum of emotion & feeling. 

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, aurum said:

This was a really good articulation.

I think that works well if both parties have secure attachment and are ready for a mature, grounded relationship.

But if they need the chase for things to be exciting and have tension, that can derail things.

There is some tradeoff between excitement and groundedness. 

Thank you.

Yes, I totally agree.

This dynamic is not about creating something super exciting and passionate. That's often a byproduct of insecure attachment and the intermittent reinforcement of hot and cold.

It's more about the deeper kind of bonding that's very stable and gratifying... and makes for a good foundation for a family (whether the partners want children or not).

And the investment by the man winning over the woman is not frenzied or desperate on either partner's side.

It's literally, just small things... like a husband fixing the leak in the sink and the wife appreciating him for doing it. Or a husband buying his wife flowers because he sees her as the prize and her expressing gratitude and showing him affection.

I think the issue is that people who don't have a lot of relationship experience imagine something a lot more extreme when I say that the woman should be the prize and the man should be the leader.

These are just subtle dynamics that naturally arise between men and women in a relationship.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

She's a sparrow,

She's a poet

[Natasha Tori Maru]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

She's a poet

Well... it is just some artistic flair to disguise the smut ay?

At the end of the day, peepee in the vijayjay 

 

Edited June 7 by Natasha Tori Maru
forgive me oh lord, I have sinned with my smut poetry. I wasn't even aware of it rhyming until re-read

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

At the end of the day, peepee in the vijayjay 

Rorschach Snare catches dirty sparrow!

Edited June 7 by Leo Gura

[Emerald]

4 hours ago, Raze said:

But then what causes women to date men soon after meeting them or even have one night stands? Are they looking past the neutrality to do it or do some men somehow have attraction arise organically very rapidly?

Women are all different kinds of ways, and they have different motivations for doing things.

Like when I was 20 years old, I had a handful of one-night stands and brief flings. And none of this was based on deep feelings for the particular guy but came more from a mixture of loneliness and a desire for the experience of hooking up... as I had just gotten out of a 4 year long relationship. So, I was kind of making up for sexual exploration that I felt held back from in that relationship (which I thought would be life-long).

So, I spent like 4 years repressing my desire for sexual exploration and not even letting myself admit to myself that I wanted to be single and date around because I was so attached to that relationship... and all of those repressed desires sprang back with a vengeance when that relationship ended. 

And for that, you just need a guy who's attractive enough to you at first blush. So, you have to find his looks and his mannerisms to meet the minimum standard for attraction.

And these experiences can be wild and exciting for those who are looking to have a wild time. But the feelings are more situational and not about the person themselves.

But these experiences won't yield very deep emotional results as it's more of a mutual masturbation situation... which doesn't really supply the feelings that women are really looking for in sexual interaction with a male partner as the experience is emotionally lacking.

It's like having sex with a guy who's still in the neutral zone. So, the physical element is there without the emotional attraction... which is fairly high risk, low reward for the woman.

So, it's not like those deeper feelings arise rapidly. It's more of a lowering the standards for emotional attraction because of a desire for the physical experience.

[PsychedelicEagle]

On 6/6/2025 at 0:25 AM, Leo Gura said:

Woman wants what she can barely hold onto. Like a bird trying to swallow the biggest rat that can fit in its mouth hole until it chokes. Then bird blames the rat for nearly killing her. But bird refuses to swallow small rats. Bird looks for another rat she can barely swallow.

Hahaha love this. Great metaphor to weave into one's mental model.

Never chase! Understanding this is like moving into tier 2 of the Spiral Dynamics of Attraction.

On 6/6/2025 at 1:29 AM, Raze said:

I definitely think there is something to the idea the feminine is pursued and the masculine pursues.

That is how men have commonly been portrayed in the cinema and TV, especially in the last decades. 

Social norms in many countries expect the man to take initiative. This is different from chasing. It's just expressing more of who he is -- his desires. It's a masculine action, in that the man penetrates the world with his intentions and desires. Once these intentions and desires have been clearly expressed, there is no more "chasing" left to be done.

Edited June 7 by PsychedelicEagle

[Alexop]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I would rather leave it vague, abstract, and undefined.

I invite folks to just contemplate the issue and see what insights arise.

Having a pussy changes your whole survival dynamics.  It is like having a kilo of gold with you all the time. And everyone knows you have that with you. How do you help that kg of gold survive? It is highly praised, people want it. It is not just that people want it but that piece of gold wants to be polished from time to time by some sandpapper(cock). But not any sandpaper, the fine grit one that you choose. But there are also evil people who will want to sandpapper your gold without your permission, and that will traumatize you. How do you make sure you avoid those sandpapers?

Imagine walking on a shady street at 2 am with that piece of gold at you with all the shady guys around knowing that. That would be pussy survival dynamics.

Edited June 7 by Alexop

[Leo Gura]

@Alexop That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't thought of it that way.

[Miguel1]

9 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

How do you meet and date women? Do they just come knocking at your door in a line waiting to be anointed? 

There has to be some element of pursuit, especially as a man. 

Taking initiative and being proactive is very different to chasing and putting the girl on pedestal.

Completely opposite honestly. You don’t care, that’s why you can approach confidently, self-amusingly.

[Majed]

@Alexop As a guy, just today i got approached by two gay guys in a car and they started talking to me about sex, i was like tf. I can't imagine how difficult and stressful it must be to be a woman. 

[Miguel1]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

And a man should still be detached from her even as he sees her as the prize, and willing to do the right thing for all parties involved even if it means losing her. So, cherishing a woman as the prize doesn't mean making his entire life about her. In fact, it's the opposite.

It's in him knowing there is no scarcity of "prizes". And being fully willing to let the prize go if that's the right thing. Non-attachment is key.

Why call it a prize then?

Just simply call it basic respect & love for your partner.

[Alexop]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Alexop That's an interesting perspective. I hadn't thought of it that way.

 many ways to think about it. The more abstract the idea, the more creative perspectives are possible.

 

51 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Alexop As a guy, just today i got approached by two gay guys in a car and they started talking to me about sex, i was like tf. I can't imagine how difficult and stressful it must be to be a woman. 

Me too man, I was actually kissed on the neck once in a queer club, and one guy even came after me in the bathroom. Disgusting, but still not even close to what a woman can experience. I could beat the shit out of those guys easily, but think being a vulnerable woman, what can you do in such cases? You just freeze, and that trauma will be Nero burned into your body, maybe for the rest of your life. Those situations when you cannot fight or fly will be trauma material.

This is the tragedy women face all the time. They want to be feminine, beautiful, vulnerable followers, and men want that from them too. But shitty men give them all the reasons to not be and do those things

Edited June 7 by Alexop

[Nemra]

21 minutes ago, Alexop said:

one guy even came after me in the bathroom.

😦

[gettoefl]

Men say yes 99%. Women say no 99%. The way it has to be. Take your 100 shots folks.

[Emerald]

9 hours ago, Miguel1 said:

Why call it a prize then?

Just simply call it basic respect & love for your partner.

Because that was the framing of the initial question.

But it's also not a terrible framing for understanding these polarity dynamics either. 

A man who is really in love with a woman will see her as someone he values like a prize. And he will be very invested in her and will try to do things to win her over and progress the relationship... or just to add something to her life.

This is how men tend to behave when they really love you and value the relationship. 

So my observation is that the most successful framing for longterm relationships is even on the level of love itself... but in terms of investment, the man invests slightly more and takes a leadership role in the relationship.

Otherwise, the relationship tends to stay a situationship where the woman is head over heels for the guy and the guy just likes her enough to stick around for sex and easygoing female companionship.

And a woman who sees the man as the prize doesn't give him space to invest in her.

[Nemra]

On 6/6/2025 at 0:13 PM, Leo Gura said:

Contemplate all the needs that pussy has to survive. Do not limit survival to the physical. Consider the issue holistically.

@Leo Gura

It needs safe space to express itself like a melody that needs silence to be truly heard, someone to feel validated by like when parents just listen to their child without judgment, something bigger to surrender itself to like standing in a beautiful landscape that has no end, someplace to fit in like placing the last puzzle piece.

[Miguel1]

@Emerald Got it.

From my own experience tho, I would say for the attraction to remain healthy in a serious long-term relationship, the girl should invest slightly more.

I find it healthiest for attraction, when I am focused on my mission and life purpose and she takes a more supportive wife/gf/partner role. Not saying that she cannot have her own career, but that her ambitions are nowhere near as high as mine.

But I am an extremely ambitious person.