Humanity Has Failed

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze

An enemy who grow nearby your town is a completely different reality for you than an enemy who "treaten the Western civilization" 8000 km ahead of you.

This is how hamas justifies oct 7, yes. 

[Twentyfirst]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

ISIS < Hamas < Taliban < North Korea < Iran < Russia/China < Israel < USA < Scandinavia

There are many degrees.

Prove it. Scandinavia is home to what used to be the vikings. Who was more brutal than them? 

Wasn't North Korea created out of bad policy between the US's Cold War with russia? 

China never affected me, but the west has...

Didn't the US meddle with Irans leadership? 

ISIS and Hamas come from foreign policy of USA. So if the USA creates a brutal regime through their actions then that means it comes from USA. It's what they, do they create monsters. So if one event like 9/11 happens the USA is allowed to turn into animal savages. But if you push around brown and black people for hundreds of events they aren't allowed to become animals

[Karmadhi]

25 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Hostages

If you think the lives of 20 of your own people are more worthy than 2 million civilians including 1 million kids, it shows how morally rotten the society truly is

[Twentyfirst]

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I feel like Leo thinks the average Israeli is like Nivsch meanwhile they are probably more similar to Smotrich or Netanyahu 

Meanwhile he thinks the average Palestinian and especially Gazan is a Hamas supporter

Who you consider as the "average citizen" of a place dictates how you see the moral development of that society

 

They don't know that most Palestinians are extremely well read, studious, doctors/lawyers/surgeons, little vices, mentally sound, etc 

[Twentyfirst]

19 minutes ago, Raze said:

Illegal settlements grew under every prime minister.

And under every american president. And today while they have cases against them at the courts and every smartphone in the world is watching  

[Nivsch]

52 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

The issue is the dehumanization they have towards Palestinians which is one of the worst in the world when it comes to dehumanization

Just like the dehumanization you have towards Israelis 🙂

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Just like the dehumanization you have towards Israelis 🙂

I do not celebrate when Israeli civilians get killed (I condemn october attacks), nor do I dream about going to Israel and killing people nor do I want Israel to be wiped out the map and all its citizens thrown into the sea. All things Israelis want about Gazans.

I just want a two state solution, Israeli officials and military people to go to jail and the majority of Israelis to get re-educated and remove their hatred Please stop spewing ridicioulous lies about me

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi

[Twentyfirst]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Just like the dehumanization you have towards Israelis 🙂

In a genocide it's only one side dehumanizing the other. In a war it's both sides dehumanizing each other 

[zazen]

23 hours ago, BlueOak said:

That is the crux of it. How do we do hold all parties accountable for their actions. It is the perfect question to ask and ask repeatedly. With the majority focus on Israel and Palestine, and not to negate your perspective, a secondary focus on those fueling and supporting the conflict.

For one, we acknowledge it. Right here and now, you and me. That Israel is responsible for a genocide. Palestine is responsible for a reprehensible act of terror. We don't go any further than that, we keep it simple. We don't make excuses for either country; we put them at the top of the list, directly responsible for making those events happen. They are personally recognized for it.

For two, once an understanding like that is agreed on by a large enough group of people, political pressure mounts. Though we don't have to ever agree on every detail zazen, (we never will ) we do need to agree on that much for it to stick. That political pressure slowly influences the secondary parties to stop enabling the behaviour.

Very cool ChatGPT breakdown you followed up with !

Like Leo had said - power is what affects things in geopolitics, more than morals. If the usual levers -morality, diplomacy, multilateral pressure - aren’t moving the dial, largely because the US acts as both shield and scaffold for Israel, structurally embedding impunity - then only power will.

On that note, there may be some hope - because the centers of gravity linked to power are shifting East and South. And with that comes leverage to negotiate which is what is taking place now. That's how to make sense of the Bibi-Trump tensions, the sudden dialogue with Iran, Iran - Saudi who were old enemies but that are now in talks also, sanctions lifted off of Syria. The old game and cash cow was the Military industrial complex (MIC) - the neocon faction. After financialization the Financial industrial complex (Blackrock, Vanguard) eclipsed the MIC.

The MIC profited off of chaos, the FIC can profit off of both, but now see's that more can be made from stability and peace in the region. This is why BlackRock and Saudi have been working together - and they are bringing this new vision into place. But the MIC is like an old dinosaur still existing off inertia and needing appeasement - it’s also a tool the FIC can use to extract concessions in these negotiations. This is all the amoral logic of cold capital.

FIC leads with carrots: investment, development, trade access.

But if blocked, MIC looms with sticks: coups, chaos, destabilization.

The FIC is threatened by the emergence of parallel financial systems like BRICS+. The world is being re-shaped into a multipolar one and it is trying to establish its place in that, by force if necessary.

If peace becomes more profitable than war, Israel’s impunity becomes a liability - not because of justice, but because it's bad for business. Selling that vision is probably the only hope left.

 

Edited May 29 by zazen

[zazen]

Interesting tweet on the US-Israel relationship from EvanWritesOnX:

https://x.com/evanwritesonx/status/1883736169156125111?s=46&t=DuLUbFRQFGpB8oo7PwRglQ

One of the most common arguments I find myself having on here is the notion that America is controlled by Israel.

That AIPAC, Zionist billionaires, Israeli lobbies control the US to function in the best interest of Israel at the expense of America.

This is patently untrue.

My argument is simple.

You don’t need a formal conspiracy when interests converge.

Joe Biden, decades ago, famously said, and I’m paraphrasing here, that “we would have to invent an Israel, to protect our interests in the region”.

Israel is a colony. Not a country. This is obvious at minimal examination when you look at just how much funding the colony needs to sufficiently stand on its own legs. The whole purpose of a colony is to extract more wealth and generate more profit. This is not the case with Israel.

Its defense is basically an offshoot of the American military. Its citizens receive free healthcare, free education and other social services at the expense of US Taxpayer citizens.

This is not an indication that Israel controls the US. It’s literally how a colony operates. America has to do everything it can to ensure citizens continue to come and stay in Israel so it can successfully transition the colony into a legitimate nation that can become self-sufficient. Israel is failing to achieve this. 

This is also why Israel primarily targets buildings, women and children in Gaza. It has nothing to do with Hamas. The goal is to ethnically cleanse / totally displace Palestinians so Israel can successfully shake off the apartheid label and avoid Gaza being leveraged against Israel for a Palestinian statehood on the international stage.

“If that’s true, why did Israel assassinate JFK?”

When the US emerged as an uncontested nuclear superpower with unmatched military prowess 70 years ago, it made the categorical decision to conduct wars across the globe. ANY leader who felt compelled to move against the Neocons was on the chopping block to get assassinated. The military faction defined the American economy, and any politician who dared to speak out against it became a threat to the national interest of the US.

Every assassination that took place, was a joint decision between Neocon military faction and the rest of the US power structure. Israel is just an extension of the Neocons military outpost in the middle east. 

"Yes, but America lost all the wars since WW2"

This is false. America has NEVER lost a war. You need to redefine what "lost" means. The American Military have dual objectives during a campaign.

1. Short-term financial gains.

2. Long-term geopolitical strategies.

The 1st benefits stakeholders invested in defense contracting. Irrespective of win or lose, it generates them substantial profits.

The 2nd objective seeks to reshape regional dynamics in favor of the United States.

The neocons driving these decisions, prioritize short-term financial benefits, to such extent, that achieving the secondary objective becomes irrelevant. This leaves the citizen (you), confused. Why continue new NATO operations when the US keeps losing these wars?

It’s because they’re not losing. The outcome is simply insignificant compared to the profits. So insignificant in fact, that conflict perpetuation is preferred over outcome-orientated wars.

"Yes, but American citizens never benefit from this"

The American people are not part of the equation. America is not a democracy. It is an oligarchy. The Military factions serve the private sector. Not the public sector. The wealth generated from the wars remains at the top. 

"What about AIPAC then?"

AIPAC is not registered as a foreign agent. That is because it is NOT a foreign agent. It does not receive money from the Israeli government. It receives money from private donors. 

Donors who are prominent stakeholders in Raytheon, Lockheed Martin and other defense contracting companies. 

American Zionists Billionaires often fund politicians through AIPAC, who then spend the money to strengthen political/military support for Israel. 

These American Zionists are not ideological nor are they religious. They are rational economic actors. 

If they were ideological, you would see these billionaires continue to fund projects in Israel or for its diaspora that have little to no direct benefit to themselves, like ongoing investments in hospitality, technology, cultural preservation, education, humanitarian aid, purely based on the belief in the cause. Rather than just influencing policy at the top levels, ideological supporters would bankroll Israeli society despite being surrounded by wars. 

This is not what we are seeing. The Israeli economy has come to a grinding halt. Import/Exports have drastically reduced. FDI's have dried up. And while Gaza has become a subject to reconstruction, not a single state actor has discussed stimulating Israel's economy. 

Billionaires, like many business leaders, typically make decisions based on a cost-benefit analysis where the benefits must outweigh the costs. If the support for Israel becomes less beneficial or more costly (in terms of political capital, financial investment, or public relations), rational actors will reconsider their stance.

AIPAC's true purpose is to obscure the origins of who truly funds these wars. It is designed for America to claim plausible deniability, that it had no direct involvement in the atrocities.

For colony to succeed and transition into a legitimate state, it needs to conduct unpopular, morally reprehensible operations such as ethnic cleansing and genocide. The most pragmatic way for the US to conduct this operation is to ensure that it personally has no direct involvement. The best way to achieve this, is through the influence of another ethnic group.

So when people like you start digging down the rabbit hole, all you see is Mossad assassinations, AIPAC, Jewish lobbying, Jewish blackmail, bribes and extortion. Then you take this knowledge and direct your hate towards your country for AIDING Israel, rather than condemning your own leaders for directly funding a genocide through colonization. 

Entities like AIPAC provide the perfect narrative for the US to brainwash people like you.

The narrative of "We, the moral people, who uphold Western Values, did everything we could to support the historically prosecuted Jews, but all they did is backstab us with blackmail and corruption". 

Every time you research into America's unconditional support for Israel, you will encounter compelling but misguided evidence of Jewish control of the US. That's not by accident. That's by design. 

A design that only BENEFITS the US. Not Israel. 

Because when the time comes. 

When Israel is no longer profitable for the Military faction. 

America will clean out the "foreign corruption" and position themselves as moral heroes. 

Trump is already starting to do this. 

Pay attention.

 

Edited May 29 by zazen

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch @hundreth

The discussion Raze - Leo - Karmadhi were having was about the moral development of Israelis vs Palestinians / Hamas, which I jumped in on. 

That's the point of raising those polls - to indicate something about that development. Hundreth, you say ''majority doesn't mean you can do whatever you want'' but the fact is it is being done but just in a slower manner.

Past Israeli PM's are now coming out (Olmert) saying that Israel is committing war crimes: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/may/27/former-israeli-pm-ehud-olmert-says-his-country-is-committing-war-crimes

'“Recent operations in Gaza have nothing to do with legitimate war goals,” he wrote. “This is now a private political war. Its immediate result is the transformation of Gaza into a humanitarian disaster area.”

Olmert said he had often asserted that Israel was not committing war crimes in Gaza and claimed with conviction that “in no case did a government official give orders to hit Gazan civilians indiscriminately”.

However, in recent weeks, “I’ve been no longer able to do so,” he said. “What we are doing in Gaza now is a war of devastation: indiscriminate, limitless, cruel and criminal killing of civilians. It’s the result of government policy – knowingly, evilly, maliciously, irresponsibly dictated.”

The polls - whether true or good enough to go by or not - show that it isn't just a issue that can be scapegoated to Bibi or the far right, as disturbing views are held widely. If Bibi is out of power, theres many that can take his place and continue on the same devastation. These polls were also not taken in the aftermath of October 7th when the population was full of rage, but many many months later when there should have been some what cooler heads.

Yes but that is the point, the restriction on Israel's actions are a result of internal pressures. Whether it is a slowdown or cessation of action.

In Israel there are internal criticisms from prominent figures. Raze downplays that, but it is important. We don't really have an equivalent on the other side.

The idea was never to scapegoat everything on Bibi, but to demonstrate there are meaningful factions within Israeli society which can influence outcomes. 

Do you believe that Israelis or Palestinians are inherently morally corrupt? Probably not. And even if you did, what purpose would proving that serve? The intentions behind my previous posts were to shift the discussions into more practical terms. I don't believe endlessly pontificating on who is more evil between the IDF / Hamas serves any purpose whatsoever. It was cute in the initial months after the war to revisit all the history and gain some context. Now we have done that, and where I once saw a more black / white situation I now see shades of gray. I was wrong. I believe there are some of you who still hold these black / white childish characterizations. It feels like your primary purpose is to promote a broad demonization narrative and not much else. I don't see any substance aside from Israel bad / West bad.

I think you believe this is the main lever to pull because if enough people believe it, pressure will be put on the US to halt weapons and ammunitions? You think this will end the war? 

1. Public opinion isn't even close to influencing the US government's actions regarding Israel as the US government is just as motivated.

2. Halting weapons / ammunitions from Israel will not change the outcome, it will only slow it down. Israel will find another way and already has enough resources. In fact, the less tethered they are to the US the less restrained they will be.

3. Further international isolation will not influence anything. They are just about as isolated as can be already.

4. The most sensible direction towards anything positive is to focus on realistic positive change. If we want Palestinian sovereignty, let's find actors from each side who are both in favor of a two state solution and bring them to the forefront. 

We can do better.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

I do not celebrate when Israeli civilians get killed (I condemn october attacks), nor do I dream about going to Israel and killing people nor do I want Israel to be wiped out the map and all its citizens thrown into the sea. All things Israelis want about Gazans.

I just want a two state solution, Israeli officials and military people to go to jail and the majority of Israelis to get re-educated and remove their hatred Please stop spewing ridicioulous lies about me

I was reffering to the rest of your message (not just the part I quoted) that included a lot of dehumanization towards Israelis. Just read again the entire message.

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

47 minutes ago, zazen said:

Israel is a colony. Not a country.

Oh stop it. This is such leftist drivel.

[Nivsch]

@zazen He overlooks another reason that isn't less significant, perhaps the most important one  which is shared values. Vmeme.

In their root, the individual right to nevigate his life as he wants to, free from coercion and authoritarian control.

His narrative that Israel is merely an arm controlled by the body is superficial, reductive and childish.

Edited May 29 by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

Israel is a real country 🤡

Israel is not a colony 🤡

 

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Oh stop it. This is such leftist drivel.

Dont you think leftists have the correct attitude here, wanting for their governments to hold child killers into account and cut ties with entities that engage in ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity?

I have criticisms of leftists when it comes to certains topics, but on this issue they are spot on

100% aligned with what is right.

These are the same leftists, often students, that put an end to the horrible Vietnam war and protests against the Iraqi war.

[Leo Gura]

@Karmadhi I don't have a problem with action against Israel. My problem is with the lack of deep understanding, the skewing of the situation by leftists.

Leftists are sacrificing truth and understanding for social justice, which is what I oppose. Truth must come first, social justice second, not the other way around.

Israel can be sanctioned without the ideological thinking. The protestor ideology is what I oppose. The hysterical genocide chants and so forth. This precludes serious understanding of a complex situation, which is necessary to solve it.

Edited May 29 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

My problem is with the lack of deep understanding, the skewing of the situation by leftists.

Perhaps but leftists are still more honest about the causes of the war than most pro Israelis that seem to think this all started on October 7th, ignoring decades of abuse and oppression which fundamentally caused it. Leftists dont condone Hamas actions, but they call them the  sad consequences of oppression and bad policy by Israel. Compare this with pro Israelis that just say "unproved attack out of the blue"

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Leftists are sacrificing truth and understanding for social justice, which is what I oppose. Truth must come first, social justice second, not the other way around.

 

That is a fair point, but still they seem to me closer to truth than pro Israelis, although not 100% perfect

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

he hysterical genocide chants and so forth. This precludes serious understanding of a complex situation, which is necessary to solve it.

As far as I know leftists support the two state solution which is I think the most reasonable solution to this problem

They do not say "lets destroy Israel" or anything like that

And many reputable scholars and international organizations have said that there is genocide or genocidal intend at Gaza so screaming genocide is not some unreasonable totally detached from reality claim that they say.

I do agree sometimes they way of communication and loud noise can be seen as annoying but the substance is what matters not the communication style

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

There is a lack of reality on this issue on the left.

No amount of quibbling, hairsplitting, or left-splaining can undermine that point.

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is a lack of reality on this issue on the left.

No amount of quibbling, hairsplitting, or left-splaining can undermine that point.

Leftists describe things as they should be, not as they function

You say here how power works, leftists yell about how justice  works

It is not that they are naive about how things work, they just want things to be better

You are pragmatic and grounded in brutal reality, they are idealistic and grounded in the fight for a better world

That is the core difference

 

Edited May 29 by Karmadhi