Humanity Has Failed

[thedoorsareopen]

Quote

Haram things happen at concerts.

So you don't live in the 21st century. Cool.

I'm haram just for existing. So are many of the people I see in the west who are calling for "free Palestine." I'll remind them that you'll happily take their support in your favor, just so you can turn around and use haram as a justification to discriminate against gay and trans and liberated female lives and other ethnicities than you. If you're seriously using haram as a justification for murdering festival goers, you are part of the "eye for an eye" thinking and aren't helping find a solution here.

The rest of you are just dismissing everyone you don't like as imperialist colonizers and saying "no u" when I bring up historical events.

This is the state of this debate. It's literally a war. There's no one working for peace here. There's just people trying to shout each other down, murder each other down. Just like Muslims in my childhood never tried to reach across and understand my perspective, they just enacted violence on me, marginalized me, hurt me, and tried to silence and minimize me.

Whatever you want to say about the west, at least the west accepts that people different from us exist. The west, like everyone, needs to protect and perpetuate itself, and it will do what it takes to do that. But we accept that Palestine has a right to exist. The opposite is often not true. Several of you in this thread are straight up saying the west as a whole needs to stop existing. I'm not saying that Palestinians need to stop existing. But a lot of Muslims I've known have said that I straight up need to stop existing, and cite their religion as an incontrovertible justification for that. Meanwhile in my area you've got queers protesting for a free Palestine. That's why I side with the west.

[thedoorsareopen]

Quote

Imagine having a pure region free of degeneracy and a small minority wants to spread alcohol, drugs, partying, prolonged adolescence, and liberal values. Most people in the region just want to work, study, grow families, and have fun at gatherings. Imagine if I broke into your house so I could find a place to read a book and pray. Now imagine if I broke into your house to open up a crack den and shoot needles in my arm.

I just wanted to really push back on this moronic, conflationary take.

All of the best, most loving, most exciting hours and days of my life have taken place at music festivals. And I went on the pilgrimage to Mecca once. That was a fucking shitshow. Mecca is an ugly place full of unconsciousness, hatred, crass commercialism, jewelry stores everywhere, rampant oppression and classism, indentured Bangaladeshi servants with no rights, women wearing the symbol of oppression that is the hijab and burka. Mecca was one of the most crassly commercialistic places I've ever seen in my life, and I live in Los Angeles. Attending the stoning of the jamarat was singlehandedly the absolutely most hateful and ugly moment I have ever witnessed with my own eyes, that is the benchmark of darkness upon which all my other experiences are weighed against.

Music festivals, on the other hand, are bright, sunny, exciting, filled with laughter, dancing and joy. The very best of humanity at its most ecstatic. And you want to dismiss that as degeneracy, while contrasting the poor innocent middle easterners as pure. Eyeroll.

I remember my Saudi friend talking about driving around looking for bootleg bathtub alcohol. I remember him talking about him and his friends casually engaging in rape, with no remorse about it. Middle easterners are humans like anyone else, and they'll get their kicks however they can. By the way, do you think the billionaire leaders of Hamas don't do cocaine and drink alcohol and deal in human trafficking and prostitution? I've seen so much unconsciousness and hypocrisy in middle eastern culture. You to want to tell me that is what purity is, but peaceful revelers at a music festival are the problem and were "asking for it" simply by dancing peacefully, I can't believe you're advancing that argument to rationalize the heinous rampage Hamas went on on October 7th. Disgusting.

[Raze]

48 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze The fact you mention 1950s were the mantality and norms were so different then (jungle, survival, less liberal and humanism) and also mention this ratio in an attack of hamas when its intention was SO different than IDF just shows the deep flaws in your current meesage.

Hamas’s goal was capturing Israelis to trade for Palestinian prisoners. Israels goal is complete destruction of Gaza and its people. Israel has *worse* intentions. Even if it didn’t, the idea that intentions absolve you of doing worse than the people you call evil terrorists is absurd. 

Edited May 25 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze From the deep right wing and above. I know Israeli politicians and their stances quite well.

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze From the deep right wing and above. I know Israeli politicians and their stances quite well.

Polls find the majority of Israelis support full ethnic cleansing of Gaza and blocking all aid. It isn’t just the deep right wing.

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, Raze said:

Hamas’s goal was capturing Israelis to trade for Palestinian prisoners. Israels goal is complete destruction of Gaza and its people. Israel has *worse* intentions.

Hamas' goal is definitely the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine.

They have equal goals. They both want to ethnically cleanse the same piece of land. This is why the conflict is endless. Both sides believe they can succeed in pushing the other off the land and not need to share it.

It's like two dogs fighting over the same bone.

But Israel actually has enough technological and social power to accomplish their ethnic cleansing project. Which is exactly what will happen in the end. Power wins. The problem is that Palestinians do not have enough social development to organize well enough nor have enough technology to over-power Israel. This makes Hamas' actions stupid because they cannot win. Hamas will be destroyed because lower civilization is always destroyed by higher civilization. Yes, Hamas is lower civilization, regardless of the moral outrage. The problem is that Hamas is too fanatically and ideologically brainwashed to understand this. So their stupidity will result in getting all of them killed. Lower intelligence is defeated by higher intelligence.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Hamas' goal is definitely the expulsion of all Zionists from Palestine.

They have equal goals. They both want to ethnically cleanse the same piece of land. This is why the conflict is endless. Both sides believe they can succeed in pushing the other off the land and not need to share it.

It's like two dogs fighting over the same bone.

But Israel actually have enough technological and social power to accomplish their ethnic cleansing project. Which is exactly what will happen in the end. Power wins.

- these are quotes from the founder of Hamas

Quote

We don't hate Jews and fight Jews because they are Jewish. They are a people of faith and we are a people of faith, and we love all people of faith. If my brother, from my own mother and father and my own faith takes my homes and expels me from it, I will fight him. I will fight my cousin if he takes my home and expels me from it. So when a Jew takes my home and expels me from it, I will fight him. I don't fight other countries because I want to be at peace with them, I love all people and wish peace for them, even the Jews. The Jews lived with us all of our lives and we never assaulted them, and they held high positions in government and ministries. But if they take my home and make me a refugee like 4 million Palestinians in exile? Who has more right to this land? The Russian immigrant who left this land 2000 years ago or the one who left 40 years ago? We don't hate the Jews, we only ask for them to give us our rights."[34]

In a 1997 speech, Yassin said:[35]

I want to proclaim loudly to the world that we are not fighting Jews because they are Jews! We are fighting them because they assaulted us, they killed us, they took our land, our homes, our children, our women, they scattered us, we became scattered everywhere, a people without a homeland. We want our rights. We don't want more. We love peace, but they hate the peace, because people who take away the rights of others don't believe in peace. Why should we not fight? We have our right to defend ourselves.

- in the end you are responsible for what you do, not what you would hypothetically want to do. International law as a position of two states on 1967 Borders, Hamas said in the past they would accept a long term ceasefire in exchange for it, more recently they’ve said they’d disarm for it or give up power to the PA. Israel says their will not be a Palestinian state and it wants to ethnically cleanse Gaza.

- western countries are enabling Israel to do this, they are not enabling Hamas to do this, therefore they are complicit in acts as bad as what they claim Hamas wants.

Edited May 25 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Raze said:

We don't hate Jews and fight Jews because they are Jewish.

That doesn't matter. These are empty cherry-picked words.

I did not say their goal is to exterminate all Jews across the world. Obviously not.

Their goal has always been to expel all the Zionists from Palestine.

It doesn't matter what the reasons are, whether the reasons are morally valid or not. Their goal remains their goal. And since they are ideological fanatics they cannot be talked out of their goal. So the only remaining option is death.

A fanatic either gets his way or dies. But in this case they cannot get their way. So they will die.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Apparition of Jack]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't matter. These are empty cherry-picked words.

I did not say their goal is to exterminate all Jews across the world. Obviously not.

Their goal has always been to expel all the Zionists from Palestine.

It doesn't matter what the reasons are, whether the reasons are valid or not. Their goal remains their goal.

Leo, what are your thoughts on the Nakba?
 

I’m not a fan of Hamas, and in fact I have many criticisms of Palestinian culture as a whole, but when something like an entire nation gets displaced from their homeland still within living memory, it’s hard not to expect people will act on that

[Raze]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't matter. These are empty cherry-picked words.

Their goal has always been to expel all the Zionists from Palestine.

No it wasn’t, their original charter called for a Palestinian state between the river and the sea, and some rhetoric about expelling Jewish immigrants from Europe, but not all Jews. Btw, that charter was written by like 12 people under siege while Israel was literally massacring 1000 civilians during the first intifada. 

This is from their 2017 charter:

Quote

Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

This is far closer to the international legal consensus than Israel’s position, from Likud’s charter:

Quote

The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration, and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel's existence, security and national needs

The PA doesn’t call for ethnic cleansing, yet prior to oct 7 they were actually undergoing more ethnic cleansing from Israel as they built settlements in the West Bank and demolished Palestinian homes. 

And again, what a group would hypothetically want to do is not the same as what another group actually did and is doing. Israel did the nakba and is trying to do it again, actually doing ethnic cleansing is worse than a group that would hypothetically want to do it if they could.

If I ethnically cleanse your family and occupy them, and you say you’d like to ethnically cleanse me if you could after I did that, then I start trying to ethnically cleanse your family again, it would absurd to put me and you on the same level. And even more absurd to absolve others for supporting me while I do that while denouncing you for wanting to do it.

Edited May 25 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

their original charter

These charters are just political hot air and propaganda.

You must look at how their minds actually work.

In their minds they believe they should never compromise with Zionists and kick them all out. That's the actual mindset they are fighting under.

Some political verbiage in an old document is not what makes fighters fight.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

28 minutes ago, Raze said:

Polls find the majority of Israelis support full ethnic cleansing of Gaza and blocking all aid. It isn’t just the deep right wing.

Supporting Trump's plan to relocate Gazans after all that happened isn't an ideology of ethnic cleansing but a potentially reasonable solution to the situation when 2M people are locked in a tiny area between two countries and suffer a misserable life under a tyrranical rule of a terror organization. 

Edited May 25 by Nivsch

[Raze]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

These charters are just political hot air and propaganda.

You must look at how their minds actually work.

In their minds he believe they should never compromise with Zionists and kick them all out. That's the actual mindset they are fighting under.

So we can’t trust their own founders words or their own charters? What exactly is the source that they want to ethnically cleanse israel then?

Then why did they offer compromises?

Saying they’ll do a 10 year ceasefire in exchange for a state is a compromise, saying they’ll disarm in exchange for a state is a compromise, saying they’ll cede power to the PA is a compromise.

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Apparition of Jack said:

Leo, what are your thoughts on the Nakba?

It was an atrocity of ethnic cleansing.

There is no doubt the Palestinians have legitimate moral outrage over the injustice of being ethnically cleansed from their land. However, that doesn't matter because POWER is what matters in politics, not morality. They do not have the power to get the justice they deserve.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Supporting Trump's plan to relocate Gazans after all that happened isn't an ideology of ethnic cleansing but a potentially reasonable solution to the situation when 2M people are locked in a tiny area between two countries and suffer a misserable life under a tyrranical rule of a terror organization. 

So why isn’t the offer to demolish the illegal settlements in the west bank and move them there while Gaza is rebuilt then let them return? Why isn’t the offer to move the civilians into the Israeli lands where they were from before israel ethnically cleansed them? Why is the offer permanent expulsion of the ethnic group? Or why do they support blocking aid and Israel destroying 90% of buildings making their lives more miserable? 

Because, they want their home to be unlivable to remove them as a population, as it is ethnic cleansing. 

 

Edited May 25 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

So we can’t trust their own founders words or their own charters?

You are cherry-picking their founders words.

I can quote you many of their founders who speak about killing every Jew in Palestine. And not just words but actions.

Your characterization of their leadership by appealing to selective quotes deeply misrepresents the situation. You cannot lawyer your way around this.

The entire Jihad movement is fueled by destroying Israel off the map. Stop denying this. This is their vision and dream.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

You are cherry-picking their founders words.

I can quote you many of their founders who speak about killing every Jew in Palestine.

Your characterization of their leadership by appealing to selective quotes is deeply misguided.

Right, but that’s also rhetoric. So we should look at the proposals they themselves offered.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

but that’s also rhetoric.

It's much more action than rhetoric.

I don't listen to politicians' words, I look at their behavior.

Rather than believing their words, look at who they shoot in the head.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's much more action than rhetoric.

I don't listen to politicians' words, I look at their behavior.

Rather than believing their words, look at who they shoot in the head.

Hamas hasn’t engaged in ethnic cleansing.

You could say that’s because they’re not capable of it, but irregardless it isn’t their action. 

Terrorism yes, but so did the ANC and Algerian rebels, and it wasn’t assumed they wanted ethnic cleansing.

Edited May 25 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Raze said:

and it wasn’t assumed they wanted ethnic cleansing.

Jihadists want ethnic cleansing.

I'm done debating this.

Edited May 25 by Leo Gura