Leo's Blog Discussion Mega-Thread

[Xonas Pitfall]

Hey, just a curious question about the latest post. Would you even call the “elitists in power” situation a lack of care for truth? In a way, absolute truth is just absolute reality, so whatever happens simply happens. Given that these people do not care for others and prefer themselves over whoever is being abused, that is ultimately what is “true.” You could even argue, in a strange way, that they are being quite truthful about their desires.

I’m not sure I would call it a lack of care for truth. It seems more like a lack of a properly incentivized system that encourages good behavior. I wouldn’t say the ultimate result of what happens reflects a fundamental lack of truth. It feels more like a fundamental lack of care for harmony, structure, or following rules. It’s the idea that if you can exploit the system, you should, or that you are entitled to do so.

I also doubt that if you told these people they were not being truthful or good, they would care much. Their “truth,” you could say, is that they believe they deserve to exploit the system, and since they can, reality allows for it, because reality simply is.

I’m not sure “truth” is the best word here. But I don't know. . .

Edited 5 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[Joseph Maynor]

@Xonas Pitfall  This is what morality is.  The theory of good behavior. 

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Joshe said:

IMO, ER will skyrocket with each new generation

Not so fast. Because people will just start believing whatever the AI says. People will stop thinking, which is irresponsible. It is already happening. Students who use AI for school end up not knowing how to think. It is an epistemic disaster. AI reduces independent contemplation. That's why I barely use it.

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Hey, just a curious question about the latest post. Would you even call the “elitists in power” situation a lack of care for truth? In a way, absolute truth is just absolute reality, so whatever happens simply happens. Given that these people do not care for others and prefer themselves over whoever is being abused, that is ultimately what is “true.” You could even argue, in a strange way, that they are being quite truthful about their desires.

I’m not sure I would call it a lack of care for truth. It seems more like a lack of a properly incentivized system that encourages good behavior. I wouldn’t say the ultimate result of what happens reflects a fundamental lack of truth. It feels more like a fundamental lack of care for harmony, structure, or following rules. It’s the idea that if you can exploit the system, you should, or that you are entitled to do so.

I also doubt that if you told these people they were not being truthful or good, they would care much. Their “truth,” you could say, is that they believe they deserve to exploit the system, and since they can, reality allows for it, because reality simply is.

I’m not sure “truth” is the best word here. But I don't know. . .

You are not getting what I said about truth being the highest value.

Those elites do not care about truth. Of course that is true. They are truly corrupt because they care about the wrong things.

Rewatch my video: Why Truth Is The Highest Value. You still haven't learned that lesson.

[Xonas Pitfall]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

@Xonas Pitfall  This is what morality is.  The theory of good behavior. 

Exactly. That’s why I’m not sure “truth” is really the right argument here. These people often seem to have a worldview that says something like: “I am above the rules,” “I simply don’t care about whatever harmony society prescribes.” They understand they benefit from other people’s good morals, but if they can exploit the system, they will. They may even create rules and structures, and position themselves in power, so they cannot be punished. As long as they can get away with it, they see no reason to stop.

This doesn’t really seem like an issue of truth. It feels more like a question of why anyone should care about others at all.

Absolute truth itself does not necessarily say “you should care about humans.” Absolute truth is more like “whatever is, is.” There is no universal law written into reality that determines whether humans should live or whether children should be protected or abused. (This is not me excusing any harm whatsoever.)

I feel like these issues are much more systemic, shaped by education, behavior, and social reinforcement. How do we teach people not to exploit others when they can? Why should they? And how do we build structures that reinforce this?

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

Absolute truth itself does not necessarily say “you should care about humans.”

It doesn't need to say that.

That's not the issue.

The issue is that if you don't care about truth you are corrupt.

You are making this about shoulds. Caring for truth is not a should. You can be a rapist if you want. But you are corrupt.

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Natasha Tori Maru]

14 minutes ago, Joshe said:

In almost every conversation I have with AI, it corrects or checks me on something. It very often lets you know when you haven't reasoned well or have missed something. The average person coming in contact with that several times a week is a huge deal for epistemic responsibility.

How can we verify the corrections are right? 

I always think on this when using ai for any contemplation. It makes me aware I could be outsourcing authority.

[Xonas Pitfall]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are not getting what I said about truth being the highest value.

Those elites do not care about truth. Of course that is true. They are truly corrupt because they care about the wrong things.

Rewatch my video: Why Truth Is The Highest Value. You still haven't learned that lesson.

Just to preface, just in case, I’m not arguing! I’m trying to understand this for myself. I have the intuition that truth is good, right, and the highest value, but I’m trying to reason through it.

My issue with “absolute truth” is as you mentioned in the video you said it might turn out that humans might not even deserve to live, or that at some point we should make room for other species, and that one should genuinely and honestly question that. The problem then is that no goal really remains “sacred” except the abstract notion of truth itself.

But then how do you differentiate between, for example, a truthful desire to abuse a child? If reality allows such a person to exist and express themselves, then reality allows it.

It becomes complicated with “shoulds.” I might think it is completely fine to eat chicken because I enjoy the taste, but the truth might be that chickens suffer deeply for it. My truth is that I enjoy the taste of chicken. Maybe even grass is Alien Consciousness on Salvia, and every time I walk on grass I am abusing a being, yet my truth is that I want to move from point A to point B.

It’s tricky to understand 😅

Edited 5 hours ago by Xonas Pitfall

[Yimpa]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Rewatch my video: Why Truth Is The Highest Value.

[Joseph Maynor]

@Xonas Pitfall  Think about this: How would a person act if they thought morality doesn't exist?

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

But then how do you differentiate between, for example, a truthful desire to abuse a child?

One can have a truthful desire to abuse a child, however, if one cared about truth, one would also realize that this is incoherent, a double-standard, because one would not want to be abused in kind.

The desire to abuse others is incompatible with a commitment to truth, because then you have to lie about the abuse, try to hide it.

Caring about truth leads you out of these problems. For example, a truth-loving person would never become a con-artist or groomer or CIA agent in the first place.

You can't become Jeffery Epstein if you care about truth. Everything he did was based on lies.

Edited 4 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Xonas Pitfall]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

@Xonas Pitfall  Think about this: How would a person act if they thought morality doesn't exist?

They would act truthfully according to whatever their desires might be. Throughout human history, we basically see this pattern. If anything, the concept of morality seems like an emergent social structure that reinforces good behavior so societies can function. At the same time, we obviously still see people wanting to exploit or work around it to serve their own survival or self-interest.

I think the issue comes when you move to a very high level of abstraction about what absolute truth entails. Then you run into the kinds of problems I mentioned earlier.

13 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

It becomes complicated with “shoulds.” I might think it is completely fine to eat chicken because I enjoy the taste, but the truth might be that chickens suffer deeply for it. My truth is that I enjoy the taste of chicken. Maybe even grass is Alien Consciousness on Salvia, and every time I walk on grass I am abusing a being, yet my truth is that I want to move from point A to point B.

But I’m not sure, honestly 😅

[Natasha Tori Maru]

This is rolling back into the truth of personal integrity also - actions reflecting words and intent. Congurancy and coherence. Recognition of Self in all.

[Leo Gura]

@Xonas Pitfall You need to contemplate more deeply the relationship between truth and goodness, and falsehood and evil.

Contemplate!

[UnbornTao]

Everyone's corrupt by that definition.

The corruption of you.

Edited 4 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, UnbornTao said:

Everyone's corrupt by that definition.

Pretty much.

That explains the current state of mankind. That's the truth.

Edited 4 hours ago by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Pretty much.

So we agree.

There's a painting of Diogenes looking for a truthful person with a lantern in an Athens supermarket, if I recall.

I suspect the subtext is that, ultimately, no one is - except perhaps Diogenes himself. That's why he's looking, and failing.

Edited 4 hours ago by UnbornTao

[Human Mint]

13 minutes ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

But then how do you differentiate between, for example, a truthful desire to abuse a child? I

A.k.a corruption. If you are desiring to abuse childs then you're also living in a world of lies and insecurity. You are unable to see beauty. It doesn't mean the abuser is truthful. The only reason you will abuse is because you got abused somehow. It might not even be your authentic desire.

[Joseph Maynor]

I don't feel like everyone is corrupt by definition.  That's a very nerdy way to think about reality.

[UnbornTao]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I don't feel like everyone is corrupt by definition.  That's a very nerdy way to think about reality.

The original sin of self. Repent now!