Communities of Shame - (Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.)

[StarStruck]

9 hours ago, Emerald said:

I think I've heard Jordan Peterson talk about the "tame the animal" idea before. He talks about how a man shouldn't seek to be harmless... but dangerous and in control of his dangerousness.

There are angles with which that is true, and I have worked with men who repress their more animalistic side and their aggression.

I actually have a close friend of mine who grew up in a very patriarchal Mormon town. And he had lots of issues with his dad.

So, he had/has this whole dynamic around wanting to avoid being "like the other guys" who he sees as too aggressive.

I talk often with him (and mostly male) clients of mine about a dynamic that I refer to as the 'lion and lion-tamer' dynamic. And this has to do with integrating both aggressiveness and self-control. This is an issue that afflicts men who try to declaw themselves because of shame they have in their aggressive side as they don't want to be "like those other guys".

But this lion/lion tamer dynamic is very subtle when it's done correctly. When a man integrates his lion,  the spark of his instinctual aggressive vibes show through his otherwise warm-hearted and interesting personality like a glittering light. And it makes a man very magnetic.

And that's part of what I find attractive about the men that I mentioned, because I can see the lion and lion tamer in them dancing together.

Men who are too much lion tamer and no lion aren't interesting. But men who are too much lion are also not interesting.

When those two elements are integrated, you get a brilliant and unique expression of the Masculine.

And it's a personal tendency to be attracted more to men who are a bit more reserved with their lion as it creates mystery and intrigue where I feel like I can unveil the hidden lion in him. Kind of like the male equivalent of "lady in the streets and freak in the sheets."

For example, young Mr. Rogers is on my list. And what I find appealing attraction-wise about him is that he was such a caring and warm-hearted person and he gave this speech back in the 70s or thereabouts that shows this very fatherly energy where he cares deeply about children's well being. And he doesn't wear his sexuality or aggression on his sleeve at all. He is so fundamentally wholesome and high vibrational.

But I also know that he's still a human man with male instincts. And the thought of rousing the lion in that sort of a man (who has tamed his lion) is intriguing to me in ways a heterosexual male might not understand or appreciate.

But some women may also have the opposite preference where she wants a guy who is a bit more ostentatious with his lion. That's also a preference that many women have.

But there is no dichotomy here of "fake men" vs "real men". All men are real men. They are just different. 

That is what I'm trying to say.

[SeaMonster]

On 4/8/2024 at 11:21 PM, Emerald said:

The actual root of the problem is that many men are pressured and/or perceive a pressure to match up to an impossible Masculine ideal. And this produces feelings of shame because no man can actually fully embody that ideal. And this produces an intense anxiety in men at any part of them that deviates from the Masculine and is seen as Feminine.

You have to look at this topic in a historical context.

Before the 1960s sexual revolution, second-wave feminism, and the breakdown of traditional gender roles, there wasn't a need for pickup artistry or the manosphere.

It's not so much about shame or pressure to match up to an impossible masculine ideal.   The issue is that women's liberation has ruptured the traditional mating market and created a lot of confusion which the manosphere has attempted to remedy.  The traditional approaches to dealing with women weren't working for men.

Before that time, young women primarily looked for a good provider to secure as a marriage partner.  After, women could afford to engage in years of unmarried sex before settling down at a later age.  The kind of men they favored for this were often different than what one would traditionally consider as a good marriage partner.

That's all it is.  The manosphere attempts to deal with that reality in a maximally advantageous manner for men by teaching them the skills to navigate this new environment.

It's simple adaptation.  Roughly speaking, women in the West don't want to marry until their late 20s or early 30s.  Of course any man who doesn't understand or willfully denies this reality is not going to be successful with women.  So unless men are "naturals" with women you get guys who either give up (such as blackpill) or adapt (PUA.)

Most women don't understand or care how the proverbial sausage is made.  They just see losers and winners and act accordingly.

Edited April 15 by SeaMonster

[Javfly33]

On 11/4/2024 at 9:50 PM, Emerald said:

.

The issue is that the expressions of these coping mechanisms sets off women's collective wounding around powerless. So, it's difficult for women to exercise compassion and to view these behaviors beyond a surface level. 

@Emerald interesting. What is womens collective wound? How It relates or differenciates from the collective shame wound of men?

[Ulax]

@Emerald You do any work with IFS therapy?

[CARDOZZO]

@Emerald Thanks for sharing!  

[bebotalk]

People enabling incels is the issue. 

they need mental re-orientation. 

[Ramanujan]

@Emerald

MIGTOW = get tired with feminism bullshit , and quit the game all together

RED PILL = get tired with feminism bullshit , but doesnt quit. they think the game is inevitable and they try to play the game

Incels = people with no ability to compete with chads and the top 20% men and call it quits

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by Ramanujan

[BlueOak]

If you want something, getting together with people who don't have it is not going to help.

Many humans are a direct reflection of the expectations of their peer group. There is nobody to learn from in these communities, no role model, and nobody to take advice on success from. So in this scenario, these groups would be the places to avoid if you wanted sex, companionship, or anything meaningful with another person. 

Edited April 24 by BlueOak

[Emerald]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:08 PM, Javfly33 said:

@Emerald interesting. What is womens collective wound? How It relates or differenciates from the collective shame wound of men?

Women's collective wound is powerlessness.

[Emerald]

On 4/18/2024 at 1:54 PM, Ulax said:

@Emerald You do any work with IFS therapy?

I have a framework for Shadow Work that has similarities to IFS work, though I'm not super familiar with all the ins and outs of IFS.

[Breakingthewall]

On 9/4/2024 at 8:58 AM, Emerald said:

This 'men trying to match up to a Masculine ideal' dynamic is very obvious even at a cursory glance.

The problem with this is that it is not something cultural, a complex or something that must be fixed, it is something real, genetic, intrinsic to man. Man is programmed to face challenges, to be courageous, and if he is not at the level he will always feel diminished, lacking something. Man today lacks these challenges, masculinity is not necessary anymore, and man feels irrelevant, a pet, a shit. And this is translated to the relationship with women, where the man must give himself, and he find that what he has to give is not enough , then the man dont give, want to take from the women , like a baby

Edited May 2 by Breakingthewall