Is starting a pickup community dangerous?

[Princess Arabia]

23 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Most women want their man to decide where to eat, plan where to go, what to speak and make those little decisions.

I wish you guys will stop the assuming. Most men that I have ever dated always asked me where I want to go and even first-time dates. The men I've dated usually left the venue up to me or would make suggestions if I wasn't sure and make sure it was ok with me first. I see a lot of assuming and thinking things are always one way here in the forum. Life is much more versatile than your puny little minds and what your limited perceptions make it out to be. Much more diverse than what you experience in your own little bubbles. 

Edited April 10 by Princess Arabia

[Princess Arabia]

9 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@Princess Arabia Good for you. Not everyone is like you and has luck like you. Please don't assume that if you survived there, you could survive elsewhere by default. Anyway, I wish you the best.

I didn't say that, I can get killed in Dubai. I can get killed in my own driveway. I wouldn't consider it luck. I'm just here living this life however its living through me. But I won't turn it Spiritual. It all doesn't matter, at the end of the day, we all end up in the grave. Apparently. 

That video was just some random video I chose. There are plenty of those kinds on YT and also showing the most prestigious places in JA too, which I've also been. Doesn't matter. All just experiences.

Edited April 10 by Princess Arabia

[Emerald]

49 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

IF you want men to honor your agency, you need to act like you have one. Men are more than willing to give enough agency to women if they can show him that they can handle it.

Most women want their man to decide where to eat, plan where to go, what to speak and make those little decisions. You do not wait for others to give agency to you. You can already see the message you will be sending him. So he will be the one who have agency by default. Women are free to take it into their own hands. Most women will do not. 

Agency will require you to handle matters more directly and communicate clearly. All you can do that, then men will not stand in your way. In fact they will be even more welcoming. 

I personally have plenty of agency and know very well what I want. And I surround myself only with men who respect my agency and take what I say seriously. I'm pretty picky about who I allow into my life... male and female.

The dynamic that I'm talking about is a more collective dynamic when groups of men get together and collectively project stereotypes, caricatures, and misrepresentations onto women as a whole group that they believe in wholeheartedly.

It's similar to how a person who's racist against black people might not be able to see the actual personality of any given black person as they see them more as a collection of racial caricatures and stereotypes. The main difference is that there's an inherent sexual agenda attached to it when certain men do that to women as a whole group.

And then when a woman tries to communicate something that diverges from that projection to the men who do this, they won't listen or will simply believe that she's deluded or that she's trying to trick and mislead him.

It makes it impossible to be heard and seen for what's true about you. And the more a man holds onto his ideas about women in general, the less he'll be able to hear you as a woman.

This is where the powerless feeling comes from that I had mentioned in my post above.

[Nemra]

@Princess Arabia

Well, I asked why you moved to the US to show you that there is a difference between living in different countries. E.g., I don't think you would live in Russia or in those places you mentioned, because what you want to do (realize reality or whatever) matters where you do it (because of society), even though from a higher perspective it might not seem that way.

Edited April 10 by Nemra

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

The thing is, women don’t need your protection against this that or the other pickup artist.

And I can see this dream/vision of being the protector of the divine Feminine leading into you superimposing a narrative onto reality where you can play this savior/hero figure to supposed damsels in distress.

But reality doesn’t work that way. And women don’t need this.

The problems that women are facing at the hands of men can only be fixed with true mutual understanding and empathy.

And our core problem doesn’t stem from the fact that pickup artists are seeking sex from us.

The core problem comes from misrepresentation and not being understood or listened to. And having men’s agendas and narratives bulldoze over our agency. Sometimes this dynamic is sexual and sometimes it’s non-sexual. But it’s always about having our agency swallowed up into men’s agendas, narratives, and misconceptions.

You are misunderstanding me. I didnt save any women. You are painting me as a stick figure and defeat the stick figure in an argument. 

Im talking about a highly mystical experience I had where I had silent missions to balance polarities and I saw it is really not that simple to balance things.

It wasnt only about male/female polarity but about many other polarities. Young - old, natural-synthetic...

I Also experienced a massive prison for souls and a big bottomless pit, and an auroborus(not sure if spelled correctly), and ive never felt a fear as strong as then... and many other intense experiences and even visited a different dimension and heard sounds drom my childhood loudly as if next door , of cartoon sounds coming from the old TV, and i immeiately closed my ears and tried not to hear it because it was terrifying and nightmarish. And I had help, someone or something saved me, otherwise I wouldnt be here.

We all need saviours, and when you are all alone, thats when you need it most. Who's the saviour that says, You are not alone? There is a friend always with you.

Sorry wall of text

Tldr: im not the saviour but the saved 

 

Edited April 10 by Dodo

[Jayson G]

From this entire thread, I've realized some things: 

1) It's probably better for a guy to prioritize a) becoming a high value attractive man than being a good PUA (even if that involves PUA), I think that's better for the world, healthier and higher potential for a man, and better for women. 

2) It's also clear from this thread that men and women have conflicting agendas, and one's agenda can step on another's agenda, but maybe there is no reality without such a war. In the end both men and women need each other to thrive to their highest potential, whatever that means for someone. This is tricky stuff I see. I can totally understand how women don't like the PUA agenda. And if I were to be real, and I had a daughter, I don't know how I feel about her being gamed by a guy lol .. I do think as a society also we need to get a lot of these cravings out of the way, I can see it perverting society in various ways. 

[Bobby_2021]

7 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

Most men that I have ever dated always asked me where I want to go and even first-time dates.

The chances are he already decided for you in case you weren't in the mood to decide. 

8 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

wish you guys will stop the assuming.

If I say black guys are black in colour, you will still say that I am assuming, because black people can also be white in colour.

Of course the things that I have said is a generalisation. It's okay to generalize. Which is why I used the word "most".

If I say men are taller than women, that's not an assumption. It's doesn't mean that all men are taller than all women. It means that most men are generally taller than most women. And you would be correct 95% of the time. You cannot ignore that 95% for the sake of 5%. You are pointing out the 5% as if it discredits the experience of the 95%. It doesn't. I can still talk about the 95%.

You keep doing this over and over again, although it's totally understandable.

7 hours ago, Emerald said:

The dynamic that I'm talking about is a more collective dynamic when groups of men get together and collectively project stereotypes, caricatures, and misrepresentations onto women as a whole group that they believe in wholeheartedly.

Stereotypes will always exist. Some of it is bullshit and others have some substance to them.

The stereotypes held in the media and propagated to the general public is despicable. There are also commonly held stereotypes because they are mostly true. These are stereotypes that has some substance behind them.

In the latter cases, you will simply have to deal with it upfront. Because most women shy away from taking agency, men have no option to take matters into their own hands. This might end up taking away agency from women who are bold enough to accept it.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Stereotypes will always exist. Some of it is bullshit and others have some substance to them.

The stereotypes held in the media and propagated to the general public is despicable. There are also commonly held stereotypes because they are mostly true. These are stereotypes that has some substance behind them.

In the latter cases, you will simply have to deal with it upfront. Because most women shy away from taking agency, men have no option to take matters into their own hands. This might end up taking away agency from women who are bold enough to accept it.

It feels like you're just trying to argue with me for argument sake. None of what you're talking about even remotely pertains to what I'm talking about. And I wasn't even talking to you in the first place.

I was just talking to @Princess Arabia about how the narrative that another person on the thread (also not you) was spinning is something that misrepresents women and thus strips us (conceptually) of our own agency within the context of their narrative. 

So, they're not saying "Jeez! Women have no agency and are so indecisive. Why can't they ever just choose what to eat?" That's a totally different stereotype that's relatively harmless and has elements of truth to it.

They're saying, "The innocence of women is under attack by pick-up artists and the divine feminine wants me to protect the purity of women." And this narrative paints women as ultra-pure and helpless and lacking our own agency. It views women as sexless victims of male sexual predation even in consensual sexual dynamics. And it projects so many false assumptions about female sexuality onto women that has historically led to some pretty awful stuff that there are still echoes of.

And when these types of narratives are superimposed onto us, it's frustrating at best and powerless feeling at worst because a person who thinks that way will never be able to see or hear you as a real person.

But you keep bringing up random dynamics about your girlfriend being indecisive and expecting you to pick the dining place. And it's so entirely shoehorned in and off topic.

So it just feels like you're trying to argue with me for the sake of arguing. 

It sucks to be projected onto and misrepresented in ways that are infantilizing. And if you were a woman, you'd hate it too.

Just let us talk about how we feel about this (unfortunately common) dynamic without trying to bust into the conversation and argue us out of and invalidate our feelings with whichever cudgel you think you have.

Edited April 11 by Emerald

[Javfly33]

On 09/04/2024 at 4:43 AM, Emerald said:

The real issue here is that the reason why pick-up communities are toxic is that 'wanting to get better with women' is often just the presenting symptom of a deeper root issue with feelings of shame.

So, pick-up communities and communities of men (like Red Pill, Incels, MGTOW, etc.) or even more conscious male communities that deliberately try to get away from how these other manosphere communities are, tend to be rife with feelings of shame surrounding pressures to match up to a particular Masculine ideal.

These communities are actually communities where the #1 shared bonding factor is NOT getting good with women or being more Masculine or anything like that. Instead, the #1 shared bonding factor is collectively agitating and soothing shame.

It's like those scenes in the movie Midsommar where everyone in the community are crying and screaming together and collectively sharing the pain. But men's groups aren't aware of that yet because collectively sharing pain isn't seen as Masculine, so it must be made unconscious.

And the people that criticize them tend to vilify them and not see the human factor there... and thus don't notice that collective shame is at the root of all the problematic behavior in the groups.

So, that awareness of shame isn't there yet. And so, what happens is that men get together to try to match up to the Masculine ideal... or to lament feelings of being unable to match up the Masculine ideal. And these feelings of shame are often seen as women's responsibility and women's fault.

 

@Emerald That´s a brilliant analysis. Although I´d say it does not cover the whole audience of pick up community. Some guys do not vibrate that much on shame and instead they are just there to try to get laid/meet women. Of course they share root problems but is not all about shame. If you look at vibrational scale there´s a lot of 'low-end vibrations' until you get to Neutral or Acceptance. 

On 10/04/2024 at 1:48 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Dodo Pickup just formalized the activity and gave it a name. But pussyhunting is a natural aspect of masculinity regardless of you views of it.

 

THIS.-

Not everybody on pick up community is because of heavy trauma. Some people are kind of fine but want to have more experience with women. 

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

@Emerald That´s a brilliant analysis. Although I´d say it does not cover the whole audience of pick up community. Some guys do not vibrate that much on shame and instead they are just there to try to get laid/meet women. Of course they share root problems but is not all about shame. If you look at vibrational scale there´s a lot of 'low-end vibrations' until you get to Neutral or Acceptance. 

THIS.-

Not everybody on pick up community is because of heavy trauma. Some people are kind of fine but want to have more experience with women. 

Thank you!

Yes, I had mentioned pickup more as a community that has elements of shame but that it's more of a mixed bag because there is also a practical efficacy to it that has more to do with seeking experiences/relationships with women.

So, pickup is more of a community that has some elements of that shame... because of some men who feel heavy amounts of shame engaging in it in an attempt to fix the shame by seeking female validation... and in some part because the majority of men tend to experience shame in a milder way.

So shame will be an element in the pickup community, but it isn't the primary coalescing factor. 

[Bobby_2021]

@Emerald I was adding on top of it. No intentions to argue with you.

I wasn't talking about my girlfriend.

I was talking in generalities.

You guys mix up the generalities with the specifics not even knowing there is a difference.

If you make a general statement, then I reply in generalized statements. 

If I say women in general don't take enough agency, you counter it with "Oh I take agency in my life" as if it is countering my statement at all.  

You don't have to defend statements that aren't about you. They are general statements. And don't make general statement about women into the specifics of your personal life.

Edited April 11 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

When I say men are taller than women, you say

"but my boyfriend is shorter than me".

You are mixing up general statements with the specifics of your personal life or what someone on this thread commented which are hardly related. 

General statements should be treated as generalities. If you make it personal, then you would feel like I am arguing with you, but in reality it had absolutely nothing to do with you at all. It's all about how you obfuscate generalities with your personal life and mine.

Edited April 11 by Bobby_2021

[Dodo]

12 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

ok, I hate pick-up artists. All they want to do is use and abuse women and treat them like a piece of meat. You see, how you switched the conversation to try to suit you because you've ran out of ways to try and sway us to agree with your toxic views about a particular set of people. Now, you are them, and you are me and everybody is one and let's just love the lord and sing kumbaya. I told you you were dangerous and narcisstic and now you're trying to use psychology to cool down the pace. I saw right through you from the beginning. 

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

The thing is, women don’t need your protection against this that or the other pickup artist.

And I can see this dream/vision of being the protector of the divine Feminine leading into you superimposing a narrative onto reality where you can play this savior/hero figure to supposed damsels in distress.

But reality doesn’t work that way. And women don’t need this.

The problems that women are facing at the hands of men can only be fixed with true mutual understanding and empathy.

And our core problem doesn’t stem from the fact that pickup artists are seeking sex from us.

The core problem comes from misrepresentation and not being understood or listened to. And having men’s agendas and narratives bulldoze over our agency. Sometimes this dynamic is sexual and sometimes it’s non-sexual. But it’s always about having our agency swallowed up into men’s agendas, narratives, and misconceptions.

Look ladies reality really not that simple. Im not your incel type who is telling you how he hates you and the boys you sleep with, because I cant get laid. The last girl I was with was screaming my name in ecstasy. I just take my time to know a girl before we screw, and I have the magic fingers of a gamer. Yes, gamer, not player.

If you are the type to like a pickup artist who has all his lines memorized and is not natural, then you are not worth my time. Go ahead and screw them. Thats my take on pickup. Go ahead. 

I cool things off with I am You and you are Me because its true. And the guy compared me to a group that includes many actual rapists and said they have bigger balls than me, a normal guy whos just giving opinion on a forum, and a guy he doesn't personally know. SO YES, I will remind him of the truth, because he is clearly wrongfully assuming who I am.

 

Tldr: idgaf

Edited April 11 by Dodo

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

"The innocence of women is under attack by pick-up artists and the divine feminine wants me to protect the purity of women." And this narrative paints women as ultra-pure and helpless and lacking our own agency. It views women as sexless victims of male sexual predation even in consensual sexual dynamics. And it projects so many false assumptions about female sexuality onto women that has historically led to some pretty awful stuff that there are still echoes of.

This is such a vague and loaded statement with many many layers of interpretations.

Generally you lose the "innocence" with experience. It's not necessarily a good or bad thing. Some prefer the experience and others, the innocence. That's a statement about the preference of the guy who made that statement.

It's not an attack on woman's agency, for those individuals who do take agency.

It is to protect women who do not have agency, who are a significant share of the women's population.

Note that vast majority of women are in no position to have agency due to their life circumstances.

And yes, it does come at some cost to women who does take agency. You are entitled to perceive that as an infringement of your agency. But your agency, if normalised to all women, will result in lots of more women in taken advantage of by male sexual predators.

At the end of the day, what do you value more?

Your own agency, or the safety of the women who do not  take/have agency?

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

@Emerald I was adding on top of it. No intentions to argue with you.

I wasn't talking about my girlfriend.

I was talking in generalities.

You guys mix up the generalities with the specifics not even knowing there is a difference.

If you make a general statement, then I reply in generalized statements. 

If I say women in general don't take enough agency, you counter it with "Oh I take agency in my life" as if it is countering my statement at all.  

You don't have to defend statements that aren't about you. They are general statements. And don't make general statement about women into the specifics of your personal life.

You're doing that thing where you're arguing with me for argument sake again.

This women being decisive/exercising agency topic is the discussion you were (and still are) trying to shoehorn in to the conversation I was having with someone else on a barely tangentially related topic. 

So, I haven't even attempted to engage/debate with you on this topic at all.... but you still say that I'm engaging with you incorrectly about it.

[Emerald]

16 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This is such a vague and loaded statement with many many layers of interpretations.

Generally you lose the "innocence" with experience. It's not necessarily a good or bad thing. Some prefer the experience and others, the innocence. That's a statement about the preference of the guy who made that statement.

It's not an attack on woman's agency, for those individuals who do take agency.

It is to protect women who do not have agency, who are a significant share of the women's population.

Note that vast majority of women are in no position to have agency due to their life circumstances.

And yes, it does come at some cost to women who does take agency. You are entitled to perceive that as an infringement of your agency. But your agency, if normalised to all women, will result in lots of more women in taken advantage of by male sexual predators.

At the end of the day, what do you value more?

Your own agency, or the safety of the women who do not  take/have agency?

You're clearly not understanding my point of view and just want to be combative and nitpick everything to death. So, I'm not going to attempt to engage anymore.

[Dodo]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

The thing is, women don’t need your protection against this that or the other pickup artist.

And I can see this dream/vision of being the protector of the divine Feminine leading into you superimposing a narrative onto reality where you can play this savior/hero figure to supposed damsels in distress.

But reality doesn’t work that way. And women don’t need this.

The problems that women are facing at the hands of men can only be fixed with true mutual understanding and empathy.

And our core problem doesn’t stem from the fact that pickup artists are seeking sex from us.

The core problem comes from misrepresentation and not being understood or listened to. And having men’s agendas and narratives bulldoze over our agency. Sometimes this dynamic is sexual and sometimes it’s non-sexual. But it’s always about having our agency swallowed up into men’s agendas, narratives, and misconceptions.

I reply to this again, because its important to me. 

You say that women dont need my protection, but I literally told you that the divine feminine needed me as its agent to help out, which can result in me having huge problems with the divine masculine, because I litetally had to undermine its authority. Im talking about a spiritual experience I had, and a lot of bad things happened to me as result after getting caught by the masculine, but there is a Love that helped me through it all. Its like the love of a mother.its stronger than any man, yet gentle and quiet.

Sometimes your presence is needed somewhere,  and you change the outcome of the event, just by your presence and witnessing. Its not only about women: the other day I was walking and there was a mother and her son infront of me in the distance and a group of 3 masked bikers behind them, with one of the bikers who was driving behind the boy on the sidewalk and could've been trying to kidnap him, but I was there, looking, and shouted "Be Careful!" And the biker moved to the road and they sped up. If I wasnt there, the situation could've been way more different.

Do you understand how sometimes you can help with your presence alone? I am not talking about the movie type help where I am pulling girls away from pickup artists and telling them they dont like them etc etc. Im saying the feminine needed me. Not all girls are like you. There are so many girls in this world, and some desparately need help and protection even this very moment probably.

Females have different qualities to males, and are generally weaker, so if men want to overpower, they can easily do that. You actually should want there to be men who want to protect you. If not you specifically,  you should want other girls to have a savior when something bad is happening to them.

Its not going to be me, but there are many righteous men out there who will protect you with a fatherly love, just like the mother protected me with her motherly love when I was getting punished by what I would assume was God himself.

 

 

 

[Bobby_2021]

@Emerald Feel free not to engage.

I am contributing to the information in the thread for those who want to read it and enlighten their perspective. 

The disconnect is in how subtly you make everything personal on an completely impersonal topic and feel offended since it has become personal for you. There is no "you" or "me" in conversations at all. 

Edited April 11 by Bobby_2021

[Dodo]

If nobody is getting hurt, then you can be as kinky and wild as you wish. But pickup brings with it so much pain. It could be the pain of the boyfriend the girl cheats on with the pickup artist who enticed her lower desires. It could be the girl's pain after she realise she got used. It might be the girlfriend of the pickup artist who is in pain as she loves him, but he cant stay off other girls.

Theres many scenarios. The scenarios where you are single and getting picked up by a single guy is perfect, and you can do whatever you like. But many times people are getting hurt, hurt badly. Hurt to the point of suicide. Just so he can bust in you and you get your wild naughty orgasms... sure, it feels sooooooo good. But its a momentary pleasure, and not what unconditional love is about.

 

Petition to start a Love Artist Community.

 

Edited April 11 by Dodo

[Princess Arabia]

7 hours ago, Dodo said:

If you are the type to like a pickup artist who has all his lines memorized and is not natural, then you are not worth my time. Go ahead and screw them. Thats my take on pickup. Go ahead. 

Thanks for the permission, daddy. You seem a bit perturbed. My whole issue here is not advocating for you to see why its cool to sleep with pua's, it's to let you know we don't need to be saved from them. Your whole stance here is very degrading because you think women can't read through the memorized pick-up lines or the pua's strategies, or that we're so stupid, we need a savior. Women are equipped to deal with these kinds of things as a survival mechanism. Most of us already know they are pick-up lines. As I already told you, most women who goes home with the guy already had it in her head, he just didn't fuck his chances up. Not what he said or did, but what he didn't say or did. 

Pua or not, a guy is a guy to me. Do I like him or not. I don't limit myself just because; and I don't look for perfection, the things I look for most people don't care about, so it would be very hard to disguise them from me since they won't think i'll be watching for those things anyway.