False Teachings - Ultra Thread

[Jodistrict]

55 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

I already am.

Awakening doesn’t take “work”, it takes love, an insight and change in consciousness.

I think people here aren’t understanding the point of this thread. It is to point out false teachings and traps. No matter how awake you are, you still have a lot of BS belief systems from false teachings and traps. Deconstructing Buddhism isn’t enough. The entire spiritual matrix is filled with BS false teachings that have infiltrated your mind. I have already listed some that I discovered on Actualized.org and I will list from other teachers as well. What separates Actualized from other teachers is that Leo is evolving whereas I don’t really see anything new with Sadhguru or Mooji, just the same old fluff from 10 years ago repackaged. Just because you have Truth doesn’t mean you are devoid of falsehood.

The real Buddhism is all you need.   All the blah blah blah ….  infinity, I am God, it’s all imagination .. is just words that increase the ego. 

Buddhism gives a balanced path for living in the world.  One third of the path is dedicated to practicing morality and learning to live in harmony with the world.  That part gets totally ignored by the Westernized spiritualities dedicated to speed and an easy path.  

Thanissaro Bhikkhu is a legitimate Buddhist teacher and all his materials are free.

https://www.dhammatalks.org/

Edited March 20 by Jodistrict

[Emotionalmosquito]

LoA

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

No matter how awake you are, you still have a lot of BS belief systems from false teachings and traps.

Exactly, You could say that any positive teaching is toxic. Only teachings that tell you what is false can be useful, those that tell you what is true cannot, I think are always obstacles 

[Bazooka Jesus]

8 hours ago, Ishanga said:

You've finally realized, or maybe always have:) that all of this sort of talk only leads to one going on in circles, which means they get know where!

Yes, and that infinite circle is reality itself. It has neither start nor end, goes on forever and ever and ever, and it is absolutely perfect. It's all there is, so there is no escaping it and nowhere "to go". So you basically have to options: Chase round and round and round the circle in a neverending loop looking for the non-existent exit (or "peak"), or rest in the center of the circle in blissful awareness and marvel at its divine perfection.

That's why they say that everything is nothing...

O

...with a twist.

Ꝏ

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, Davino said:

It seems to me that you are talking about a legit peak mountain of awakening, in the mountain range of Awakening. I recognise that I have still to work to the top of that mountain

The thing is, if you remove all the human thing, all the ideas, fear, barriers, what remains? 

It is exactly the same thing that makes a plant, or an alien, or a hydrogen molecule. There is no real difference between a hydrogen molecule and the alien with a brain the size of a galaxy, the only difference is quantitative, but that is irrelevant to what concerns us. Of course it is fascinating and I want to take LSD and open myself to the cosmos, but first you have to open yourself completely in the other direction, to limitless existence and recognize yourself in it. I can really do that after meditating for hours, it is a job that requires time, it is like separating two magnets, they attract and come back again and again, at first you achieve 1 second, then 1 minute, then your entire experience is more in that direction, but the inertia of a whole life push in the other direction, the identification, the limits.  

Spiritual work is opening up to the formless in an easy and regular way and identify yourself with that. to do this you have to eliminate the lie about yourself, or at least that's what I see, and understand how we set limits, then it becomes easier. It is not something that you can think about, I am nothing, etc., but something that you have to do, you have to take off all the limits from yourself until pure, bottomless existence remains. If you are totally open to the bottomless, there is no more, it is bottomless, without limit, then you are the same as the plant, the alien, the proton and anything else.

From there you can focus on the other direction, the realization of the structures that existence forms, the dynamics of the cosmos, there are many awakenings in that, and they are all of enormous beauty, but without being clear about the first, they tend to madness.

[Davino]

@Osaid

Many times before you realize something is a paradox you think it is a contradiction, isn't it so?

7 hours ago, Osaid said:

Reality does not contradict anywhere, your human intellect and imagination is where the contradictions are generated.

I'll use your argument: If you don't have contradictions within infinity, then it is not infinite.

[Davino]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Exactly, You could say that any positive teaching is toxic. Only teachings that tell you what is false can be useful, those that tell you what is true cannot, I think are always obstacles 

Truth and falsehood, in the way you are presenting them, cocreate each other

[Davino]

42 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

From there you can focus on the other direction, the realization of the structures that existence forms, the dynamics of the cosmos, there are many awakenings in that, and they are all of enormous beauty, but without being clear about the first, they tend to madness.

100%

It is a prerequisite indeed. But there are grades to that also. I know it because I have gone far in that direction also but it is clear that you have gone more. In a way, one facet shines light onto each other. Realizing that all there is, is existence, just puts everything into context. In fact, existence was my first truly absolute awakening I had, there is no way out of existence, existence is all there is.

If something exists, then it exists.

If something doesn't exist, then it exists as inexistant.

There is no way out of existence.

From that totally needed groundless ground all the other awakenings unfold, most certainly. I recognise the importance of such absolute realization but just say there is more to the game when that is fulfilled to a certain degree. So looking forward for that bottomless existence awakening you keep talking about. 5meo is guiding me towards it, I feel it.

[Breakingthewall]

35 minutes ago, Davino said:

5meo is guiding me towards it, I feel it.

5meo was the key for me, but it has the characteristic that it is violent and artificial. That is to say, I have very solid barriers that compartmentalize my experience, my perception, so with 5meo I destroy them for 5 minutes, but my whole being is pressing to create the barriers again, so there is an unbalanced, strange sensation, and there is a tendency to conceptualize. Absolutely useful and necessary but not an end in itself. For me, after making this break many times, the next step has been with low doses of weed, once weed does not make you think but you can meditate, achieving exactly the same effect, only more progressive and natural, the complete dissolution of limits, recognizing the pure existence that you are again and again, with the consequent return to contraction.

Every time you do it you weaken your defenses, your being drifts a few degrees in that direction . Now the challenge is to get it sober. What is obvious is an overall experience, 24/7, totally different, fluid, with less anxiety by several orders of magnitude. once the reaction begins, it does not stop, there is only one end: the permanent total opening to reality, because it's obvious that we are that, anything else is twisted, anxious perception in more or less extent. 

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, Osaid said:

How can infinite become "more infinite"? Unless it is lacking, and not truly "infinite"? How can something without boundary or limitations become more of that? Unless it was still limited by something? There is something very obviously missing here.

The way you're defining "infinite" contradicts itself, because you are saying that the previous infinite was limited, and thus that would actually make your previous conception finite.

Saying that there is "more infinite" is the same as saying that there is something beyond the absolute. There isn't. You think that there is something beyond infinity. And you will chase after that idea forever, not because there is actually something beyond infinity, but because you will never find it. The idea of "more infinite" is a contradiction, and so you are stuck chasing that ghost until you see through it. You perceive this ghost as "deeper awakenings" and "deeper truths", like a carrot on a stick that paradoxically gets farther and farther away with each awakening.

There are higher infinities in the sense that you can say you understand Infinity, but you don't really understand everything it entails. So you can discover higher dimensions and domains of it which you couldn't imagine before.

It's one thing to just parrot Infinity, it's another thing to experience Infinity and all its strange manifestations. 

[r0ckyreed]

Another false teaching that stands out to me is that Buddha says desire is root of suffering, but I would say it is unfulfilled desire and ignorance that are the root of suffering.

The Hindus got it right with avidya leading to maya, which leads to duhka. 

Buddhism oversimplifies desire when in reality desire is like a tool that can be used for good or for evil. Desire can turn into greed if you aren’t careful and desire can also turn into love. How can you truly love reality if you don’t desire? That is the ultimate paradox in Buddhism. It is like saying you love your girlfriend but don’t desire her. Both go together. If you don’t love life, then by essence, you are saying that you don’t desire to live. 

Notice that you can say you have no desire to live, but that isn’t the same thing as actually having no desire to live. If you truly had no desire to live, then why is your body and mind fighting so hard to keep you alive? If you truly had no desire, then you would just die right now.

Unhealthy desire leads to greed and devilry. But unhealthy detachment leads to apathy and depression. It is possible to be healthily detached to some degrees but it is unhealthy detachment if you are detaching yourself from your spirit, your will/purpose for living.

Buddhism overlooks the importance of ambition and purpose.

 

Edited March 20 by r0ckyreed

[r0ckyreed]

One of Sadhguru’s best teachings I’ve heard is him challenging Buddha’s conclusion on desire being the root of suffering and people wanting to silence their minds. He said that the best way to silence your mind is physical death. Hands down.

Another false teaching is telling students to stop asking questions because it is monkeymind and to just sit in silence because “thinking is bad.” I can see how this can be interpreted in multiple ways, but sometimes it reminds me of religion where followers are encouraged to just take your word and not question the teachings but it is by questioning the teachings that makes you stronger and deepen your understanding/growth.

Edited March 20 by r0ckyreed

[r0ckyreed]

8 hours ago, Emotionalmosquito said:

LoA

I would say LoA isn’t necessarily a false teaching. It has many truths to it. But I think if you take it to its extreme and misunderstand it as being able to think the reality you want, then it would be false. LoA is basically like CBT in that our thoughts influence and create our reality. But what is meant by that statement is often misunderstood. Thinking alone doesn’t manifest but our actions, which often times are influenced by a frequency of thought if you think about it. 

War exists because there is a negative thought/belief that is being acted upon.

[Bazooka Jesus]

23 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Another false teaching is telling students to stop asking questions because it is monkeymind and to just sit in silence because “thinking is bad.” I can see how this can be interpreted in multiple ways, but sometimes it reminds me of religion where followers are encouraged to just take your word and not question the teachings

Actually it's the opposite. Religion is all about people asking questions and then receiving a concrete answer in the form of a conceptual story ("God is this, God is that, God wants you to do this, God doesn't want you to do that").

Silencing the mind and perceiving reality directly without any conceptual filters is precisely what religion doesn't ask you to do. It's always "listen to what I am telling you", never "open your eyes and see for yourself".

[r0ckyreed]

34 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Actually it's the opposite. Religion is all about people asking questions and then receiving a concrete answer in the form of a conceptual story ("God is this, God is that, God wants you to do this, God doesn't want you to do that").

Silencing the mind and perceiving reality directly without any conceptual filters is precisely what religion doesn't ask you to do. It's always "listen to what I am telling you", never "open your eyes and see for yourself".

Interesting. That has not been my experience. I ask questions and they tell me to just have faith and trust in God. They also give more conceptual stories, but a lot of times dogmatic people want you to stunt your curiosity. If more people questioned their religion and those conceptual stories, it would be a damnation for the church.

Silencing the mind has its benefits, but the deepest insights I have attained came from being curious and asking questions and not from silencing that. The only thing I have attained from a silent mind is serenity but that doesn’t compete with the feeling of awe and connection I felt when I let my curiosity and mind wander in wonder.

[zurew]

14 hours ago, Osaid said:

How can infinite become "more infinite"? Unless it is lacking, and not truly "infinite"? How can something without boundary or limitations become more of that? Unless it was still limited by something? There is something very obviously missing here.

I want to respond to this, even though I know you replied to another guy. To be clear, Im not trying to defend his idea of spirituality or God, Im specifically trying to respond to the infinity claim. (If you have a different definition of infinite compared to what Im outlining down here, then Im sorry, cause I will probably waste your time.)

 

In mathematics you can find claims about bigger and smaller infinities. Think of it this way: You can have a set of natural numbers that will contain numbers starting from 0 to infinite. However that set is smaller compared to the set of integers (which includes negatives as well). And that set is smaller than the set of rational numbers.

Another way to talk about it - is by invoking a coordinate system: We can start with only using one axis (x). That one axis can contain numbers from - infinite to + infinite. However, we can add 1 more dimension (axis) to it and it will contain infinitely more coodinates. And then we can add one more axis to it and that will be bigger compared to the 2 dimensional one.  And after all that, we can add infinitely more axis to it. - in other words, even though a 2 dimensional coordiante system can contain an infinite amount of coodinates, it still cant contain as many as a 3 or more dimensional coordinate system could.

Edited March 20 by zurew

[Bandman]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There are higher infinities in the sense that you can say you understand Infinity, but you don't really understand everything it entails. So you can discover higher dimensions and domains of it which you couldn't imagine before.

It's one thing to just parrot Infinity, it's another thing to experience Infinity and all its strange manifestations. 

"The possibilities are just as unlimited inside of the limits as outside of them"

-Jules Deelder

[Jodistrict]

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

One of Sadhguru’s best teachings I’ve heard is him challenging Buddha’s conclusion on desire being the root of suffering and people wanting to silence their minds. He said that the best way to silence your mind is physical death. Hands down.

Another false teaching is telling students to stop asking questions because it is monkeymind and to just sit in silence because “thinking is bad.” I can see how this can be interpreted in multiple ways, but sometimes it reminds me of religion where followers are encouraged to just take your word and not question the teachings but it is by questioning the teachings that makes you stronger and deepen your understanding/growth.

You are reacting to the doctrine “desire is suffering” which is a poor translation into English of what the Buddha actually said.  Of course we need desire.  We can’t live without it.  If you don’t desire food you will starve.   You also need the wholesome desire to awaken.  Much of the objections fade away when you look at Buddha’s actual teachings and not the poor translations of Western teachers.  The Buddha also never said the ego is the enemy, which many  Western teachers promote.   Many hours are spent criticizing a strawman.

 

[Breakingthewall]

Enlightenment has always been something concrete: identifying with existence, with your substance, your true self, call it whatever. with what makes plants grow, gravity attracts, stars burn, life is alive, etc. This is a fact, a reality. When this occurs, the form takes a backseat. It doesn't matter if you are a leper or if you are sentenced to life in a Russian prison, life or death. you are one with reality. This is not the infinite, but being infinite is its quality. It is existence, being, truth, you. The work is to be one with this, leave the accessory and get closer to the essential. To be one with the truth you must abandon the lie, the ego tricks, it's quite obvious 

The problem is searching in the wrong direction. The direction is inside, not outside. the essence, not the manifestation. Who cares about knowing or understanding if I am divided, blocked, alienated? The priority is opening myself totally, then let's explore. I think that no real understanding is possible if it's blockage, barriers. All understanding will be contaminated. 

Edited March 20 by Breakingthewall

[Osaid]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It's one thing to just parrot Infinity, it's another thing to experience Infinity and all its strange manifestations. 

Reality is always relatively manifesting itself in an infinite amount of ways. That is why science will explore physical reality forever. That is why psychonauts will explore psychedelic states forever. That is why writers will make different stories forever. That is why video game developers will make different video games forever. Exploring a certain aspect of reality does not mean you are exploring absolute truth, even if it is infinite in its variety. Life has always been "strange manifestations", there is nothing else here.

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

but you don't really understand everything it entails.

If you don't understand everything it entails, that simply means it wasn't actually infinite. You are looking at infinity as if it is some knowledge or skillset you acquire. Like you can infinitely understand mathematics or you can infinitely understand the physical universe. It is not like that. That is relative knowledge. That is not existential or infinite. "Infinite" doesn't mean there is a greater amount of it you can understand forever. That is not true infinity, that is your mind splitting up infinity into an infinite amount of objects you can acquire or learn or experience. Infinite means there are no limitations or boundaries or divisions to the experience. 

When you say there is more to understand, that is you dividing and splitting infinity into two objects, one which lacks what the other infinity does not lack. Infinite is never two, it is always one seamless thing. When you split something like that you immediately turn it into something finite.

Edited March 20 by Osaid