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Are you referring to the "Beyond God Realisation" video? As I understand it Frank was talking about how "God" is just a more expanded experience of ego, and that there is more to go to arrive at total permanent centerlessness. He wasn't exactly saying that Leo's insights are below "traditional Enlightenment". He was outlining some trappings on the path that prevent people from attaining centerlessness, which is something that Leo doesn't really talk about... I wonder if Leo's attained it. If he has, awesome. But if not, he should.. and THEN critique Frank. From how Leo talks about and dismisses the no-self insight, I am not sure he's actually had it. Not deep enough to realise permanent centerlessness anyway. Maybe he has... But I don't think so simply because I've never heard him mention it. And I've watched basically everything he's put out on enlightenment, consciousness and nonduality.

Meditate on the Meditator.

What are your Realizations about how this Universe works (about God, Infinity, Nonduality, Solipsism, Purpose) How does it feel to be highly conscious (what exactly changes, do visuals remain the same) Is Consciousness absolute or are there also finite seperated Sub-consciousnesses within the Absolute Consciousness Can Consciousness replicate or divide itself or create something disconnected from itself Why is my Consciousness not on a constant level and sometimes higher and sometimes lower / why am I not conscious when I sleep What is the difference between being Consciousness and being conscious Am I conscious (me who is typing and asking this questions) / do I or my Consciousness exist Am I your imagination or are you my imagination Is Imagination the activity of Consciousness when it takes a form/shape (like a table) If I am God/Consciousness why am I not simultanously conscious about everything (the whole Universe with all creatures consciousness) Why I am a limited me and look at the Universe being "behind my eyes" instead of being everything at once

It's okay to be wrong. But that's not issue here. The issue I have is with people who get into Buddhism and nonduality, and then start thinking they know everything, and start acting closedminded and gaslighting me about God, Awakening, Truth, Love, Consciousness, and psychedelics -- denying these things in one way or another. This has become a recurring problem. I can give you a list of people who have come here to gaslight me about Awakening, and the error of their ways. Whether it was WinterKnight, Nahm, Frank Yank, Rali, or many others. Curt has done some psychedelics. Obviously not too much because he is scared of them. Yes. Everything boils down to understanding. When I say "understanding" I am not just talking theory. The understanding I talk about requires massive levels of consciousness and direct experience. So it's not just conceptual. True understanding requires direct experience and Awakening. Surrender is important in that your ego will not be able to manipulate its way to the highest levels of Consciousness. So surrender plays a role of course. But it is not an end in itself. Basically you surrender to Absolute Truth/God. The point is not to surrender, the point is to access God, by whatever means possible. Well, that's the trick. Deconstruct all that stuff and see what remains.

Nope, that's just a narrative in your mind. Understanding Consciousness is way more tricky and radical than that. Yes, absolutely they are mental constructions and dogma. This situation is so bad that even after you have some of your so-called "enlightenments", even THAT is mental construction! Yes they are. You are doing it. Pure nonsense! This is self-deception! Most of the so-called "enlightened" people on this planet are deeply self-deceived. Nonsense. You fundamentally misunderstand how psychedelics work and what Truth even refers to. No. You fundamentally don't understand what Truth is. Consciousness comes in many states and degrees, and all of them are True. However, Awakened Consciousness is an extremely rare state and you will not be in it 24/7. Nor must you be in order to understand what Truth/God/Consciousness is. You are treating truth as some abstraction. What's not what Truth is. Truth is your entire field of experience, no matter what that experience is. However, even though that's the case, that doesn't mean you are Conscious of much. A dog's experience is Truth, however the dog is not Conscious of anything existential. I can say the same thing for all your meditative achievements. Even the fact that you have ever meditated is a concept/memory. So if you are going to deny me access to memory, I will do the same to you, and therefore even Buddhism doesn't exist because it's just a memory. You have never read a Buddhist book nor ever sat down to meditate nor done a retreat -- by your own logic. Calling me schizophrenic is completely nonsensical. You have no idea what that word means. Concepts can be used to make sense of reality, there is no problem in doing so, as long as it is done carefully and you understand what you are doing. This is Buddhist dogma that you picked up and which now forms the background of your entire worldview. This is just one way to frame things, and it certainly is not Awakening nor any high degree of Consciousness. Nor is it any kind of deep metaphysical understanding of reality. What you are talking about is shallow stuff. I don't give a fuck about equanimity or surrender. That is Buddhist dogma. What matters is Consciousness and understanding of reality. You are chasing the wrong thing. No! You have no comprehension of what God or Omniscience is. More Buddhist dogma. A piece of dog shit is God. But that doesn't mean you're deeply Conscious of anything. I'm well aware of what you're referring. What I'm referring to is a whole order of magnitude beyond the things you're talking about. You cannot even imagine what I am talking about because it is so radical. Simply irrelevant to Consciousness. You are full of shit and I see through all your Buddhist posturing. You haven't even begun to comprehend Consciousness. And if you keep acting in this utterly arrogant manner, you will be banned from here. You actually believe you comprehend Consciousness better than me? You're insane. You are a posterboy for the dangers of Buddhist and nondual teachings. You've turned them into a just another dream state which you now call "enlightenment". That's not Awakening, that's just a spiritual dream. I repeat: Buddhism and nonduality is not God-Realization nor Awakening. Enlightenment is dream. Since your mind is closed, I will no longer me making an effort to teach you. This is a consequence of your own mind's design. That's how you wanted it. So that's what I will give you. I am not going to teach people who refuse to listen and think they know better than me. You have not outsmarted me. You've just fooled yourself. I told you from the very beginning how much openmindedness is required for this work. You failed to learn that basic lesson. The amount of arrogance and gaslighting that I have to deal with from people like you is outrageous. You should be be ashamed of yourself. You have no respect for the sheer intelligence I offered you. I'm one of the only people on this planet who could have helped you access the highest Consciousness. But now you can go swim in the dream that you and your Buddhist friends have constructed. What I teach is not Buddhism. Because Buddhism isn't Awakening. If you don't like that then you're in the wrong place. The things I teach, no other human will teach you. It will take you a long time to appreciate that, if ever.

Okay, let's look at that. Realization (enlightenment, etc) is about what is TRUE in direct experience, in this moment. That is like the entire game. It is a radical and uncompromising commitment to authenticity and to seeing clearly. Concepts like "nonduality" and "no-self" and "dependent origination" emerge FROM that investigation, they are not dogma going into it, and they are never considered TRUE of themselves. They are pointers to what is true, guides to deepening the investigation. Once completed, self-deception literally isn't even possible, because there is no "room" between this and that, between a self and a truth, between experience and someone to judge experience. Pure seamlessness. Your psychedelic "truth" is a joke for several reasons. It is never NOW, but always in the past, a memory, an experience, and always seen THROUGH the contractions and conditionings you retain as "you" in this moment. The memory occurs now, but it is only a simulacrum, a reconstruction. It is not IT any more than a photograph of London IS London. Your only defense against this is a ludicrous one, in which you ASSUME the so-called "truth" you got from the trip and apply it circularly (e.g. you'll say shit like: You're just God imagining that he remembered the trip"). This is epistemological BS and you know it. What is true MUST be true NOW, or it isn't fucking true. It's not about brain chemistry or no-mind or any of that crap. If it IS TRUE, it is true now/always (and not in concept! in experience!!!). All of your remembered trips is nothing more than concept, period. And I call you schizophrenic because that is the delusive state in which concept is taken to BE reality, which in your case is pretty fucking accurate. "The work" as you say leads to THIS. It is the only thing it can lead to, because it is right here and right now regardless of the content, regardless of what is perceived or thought. But see, you don't seem to understand how this actually progresses at all because you literally didn't make it out the gate. You don't understand that sensory clarity deepens, and eventually allows one to see the finest grains of experience, and you don't understand what happens when you bring equanimity to ever more subtle gradations of "selfness". You don't understand how self and resistance arise together, mutually dependent, to precipitate out of Nothing "everything", in a sense, even consciousness itself. Boundaries are just more distinctions, more resistance, and they CAN be dissolved with equanimity and surrender. The agent/doer is more resistance, the watcher or observer is more resistance, even Being God/omniscient or Being Nothing is more resistance. This isn't seen in a mystical flash, but in a microscopic AND macroscopic examination simultaneously that is clearer and clearer until even clarity gets sucked into the black hole that collapses all dualities. Being and non-being, existence and non-existence, God and nothing at all... all collapse, but not into "emptiness" (which the buddhists are not using in the way it sounds in English), but into THISNESS, which is just a way of saying there IS this dance happening, but that in it the divine and mundane are unified utterly. A piece of dog shit is as divine as the most incredible alien god-realization you could ever dream up. Literally, there is nothing "outside" of THIS because it is itself without a self. The tongue twists and fails in describing the collapse of duality, yet it can be KNOWN literally as true Unknowing (what do you think Ralston's title really means?!). But this realization is achieved only through this radical journey of acceptance and love at deep and subtle levels. Loving a criminal is a walk in the park compared to loving the subtle horrifyingly painful vibration that you feel to be you in your deepest existential being. It must be done until "done is what needed to be done." You, sir, have no ability to imagine or understand this, no matter how many trips you do. Someone being able to "talk" about the nature of God is only a disqualification, never a qualification. THIS cannot be spoken of, and disregarding that as folly IS folly. You probably won't hear any of this, being the dishonest narcissist that you are. But to anyone with whom this resonates, I sincerely encourage you to look to your heart for truth, not to Leo.

@mr_engineer The (Masculine and Feminine) has its roots in Chinese philosophy, specifically the Zen tradition. It is referred to as Yin-Yang, as in the famous nonduality symbol. It has also been around in Plato's philosophy. But more recently, it was popularized mainly by Carl Jung. Essentially, Yin and Yang are the two forces that are opposites in some way, but not entirely. They are distinct enough from each other, but not completely. They interplay with each other without cancelling one another, which gives birth to this phenomenon called Life. And these two forces exist on every level that you can imagine, from microscopic to universal. They also manifest in different forms, like the psychology of a person, or the cycle of life, or just the inhalation and exhalation of air in each breath. Basically, any duality that you can perceive can be thought of as an interaction between the two polar forces of Life. The labels are interchangeable and there's not really hard distinctions between them. That's the Chinese philosophy, and it's centered around the concept of balance. Then comes Carl Jung and starts making connections between that and the human psychology. Eventually, he came up with the Anima and Animus theory that explains one's personality as an integration of two opposite aspects that he referred to as the masculine and the feminine as they were culturally associated with gender. Now, I'm not entirely sure about this but I think that Jung understood that this cultural association is not absolute, and that it can change depending on culture. The concept is solid, as every man has to repress some woman (feminine) qualities inside himself and every women has to repress some man (masculine) qualities inside herself. This is necessary in order to be a functioning part of society. And it's always valid to refer to the counterpart with its corresponding label, because there are only two counterparts. For example, you can always say that a person who has problems managing their emotions is dealing with Anima possession, regardless of their gender. So the feminine part of their personality which is responsible for managing emotions is in their (unconscious) shadow, which is another Jungian concept. And in order to correct this problem, the person needs to consciously examine the part that is causing problems in order to make it aware, in this case the feminine, so that it leaves the shadow and enters the conscious mind. And while emotions are typically associated with females in our current mainstream culture, Anima possession can affect women as well, as neither parts of one's psychology has a gender.

Not just a religious person..You seem to claim that NOBODY at all understands what God is . This is an outrageous claim .you seem to claim to be the most awake person ever and you shit on Buddhism, Islam, advaita, nonduality and almost all spiritual teachings and teachers since the dawn of time. You have yet to prove that you know better than all mankind.

There's criticism of nonduality from above, and from below. So watch out.

Nah dude, I agree with you on transcending even nonduality. When I first met my current therapist a year ago, I mentioned being into nonduality. She (implicitly) communicated to me that nonduality is ultimately bs And, yes, my therapist IS me!

@Yimpa I put my foot down on issues of highest importance for reaching the highest levels of consciousness. I see my role as helping people transcend the illusions created by Buddhism and nonduality, which have become so popular today, and go unquestioned because students do not have the balls nor intelligence to question it. But follow whatever path resonates with you most. Just don't expect me to follow any human teachings. I am playing a much deeper game.

With all due respect, what happened to your rule about nonduality wars not allowed here? Seems like you’re contradicting your own standards lately.

Hey @Ninja_pig! I hope you're holding in there okay! I know this stuff can be really challenging - I experienced something very similar over the past year and I'd love to share what it was like for me and how I've been finding my way out. I hope it's helpful to hear my story! I'll try to keep it as short as possible, but I know this is gonna be a bit of a long one Leading up to June 2022, I had done a substantial amount of spiritual work and I felt like I was on the cusp of something. I had some intense psychedelic experiences, meditated rigorously, and even popped into short non-dual states. But in all those years of spiritual work, I was still under the materialist paradigm and the illusion of a material universe. Sometime in June 2022, I took around 300 ug of LSD on a lazy Saturday. I had already tried 4.5 g of mushrooms and some NN DMT, so it's safe to say that I wasn't expecting that LSD trip to rock my world. But at some point during the trip, I fell into divine love and unity. I was writhing around in tears of pure bliss and had the realization that there is no physical world... there is only beautiful, loving consciousness made of nothing dancing in nothingness The realization had been building over years, but it snapped during that trip and cracked me wide open. It was the most beautiful experience of my life up until that point. ...and then I started to come down lmfao. There was a HUGE discrepancy between the love and truth that I experienced during that trip and what I experienced on a day-to-day basis during that time, and because of that, it threatened my ego BIG TIME when it came back online. It was essentially a massive episode of ego backlash immediately after my most ego-less experience! Leo has a great video about ego backlash. The way I understand it is that following an experience of love and truth, my ego was so threatened that it had to lash out with fear and delusion in order to stay alive... so it threw my worst fear in my face: Nihilism! All of a sudden, I started experiencing violent intrusive thoughts. I was so caught off guard because of what a beautiful experience I had just had on the LSD that I didn't even see it coming! But I was pummelled night and day with questions like "If God is whole and complete and you don't exist as a separate self, why stay alive?". Ultimately, these were fearful questions that had been in the back of my mind during my whole spiritual journey, and I believe that my ego used these as a last stand to fight against the experience of God realization that I was having. I felt existential dread every day for months, but I had this intuitive sense that the only way out was through. So I continued meditating intensely, reading, and of course, watching some lovely Leo videos to figure out what was going on. And the last time I tripped, I had a breakthrough! I realized that this fear, nihilism, existential dread, and even loneliness only happen in the human mind through ego-centric thoughts. In my most loving and truthful states after a deep meditation, there are no thoughts about that kind of shit... in fact, there aren't many thoughts at all. My mistake in dealing with my ego backlash was that I tried to fight my fearful thoughts with more thoughts! I thought there was a LOGICAL way out of it. But God isn't lonely, depressed, or nihilistic. God is love. And God doesn't need some external reason to exist. The point is itself! So anyway! Instead of engaging these ego backlash thoughts, I just do my best to love them and drop them. I get present and relax into the nonduality instead of going through thought loops about it! Because without the petty shit that my ego mind throws, there is no nihilism. There's just God! And nothing else. And now I'm back to crying my eyes out on the floor over the beauty of God! Full circle lol. Some helpful techniques include Vipassana meditation (or any meditation really), Leo's Satisfaction meditation, Metta meditation, and lighter, silly things that help me out of my head and into presence/love (watching standup comedy, appreciating some nature, laughing with friends). I hope you can gain something from hearing about my pitfalls and successes here @Ninja_pig! I apologize for the long post - this is just a topic near and dear to my heart and I wish you the best of luck working through it. It's been a beautiful milestone on my journey and I know it is for you too Also shoutout to my boi @Leo Gura the spiritual goat - thanks for helping me to realize nothing heheheee

It goes way deeper than which terms you use. What I look at is not the terms per se, but one's fundamental grasp of what Consciousness is. Does the person understand how it works, why it exists, what its highest levels are, how the mind constructs reality, etc? Buddhism and nonduality tends to flatten all this rich terrain down into a 1-D plane. And it is a distinctly human sort of plane.

Hehe.... It's way more than pure practice. It is an entire worldview and not only that, it will actually prevent you from reaching the highest levels of Consciousness. You will not reach God-Consciousness via any kind of reductive system like Shinzen's. Consciousness is non-reducible. You cannot understand God by breaking your field of experience down into pieces and chunks as Shinzen attempts to do. This is the mistake of materialism all over again in the guise of Buddha's authority. Judge for yourself, but what I'm saying is that cessation has nothing to do with Awakening. Have as many cessations as you want, in the end you will still not understand God. Cessation != understanding. And nothing beats understanding. You should not trust any human. Seek the truth independently for yourself. Consider all these humans are just tricksters testing you with traps and games. Your job is to outwit them all, not to subscribe to any one. As soon as you stop thinking independently, you fail. - - - - I am working on a course that will once and for all explain how to reach God Consciousness and completely deconstruct Buddhism, Vedanta, nonduality, and absolutely all human spiritual teachings. Until you reach Alien God Consciousness, Insanity, and Infinite Kinds of Love, including Alien Love. And ultimately Omniscience.

When I first started this sub-forum, my biggest concern was that people would use it as a platform to engage in religious debate. Thankfully that's never happened. However, what I failed to foresee was the same dynamic manifesting in a more subtle form: people engaging in nondual debate. This is even more regrettable, because it goes directly against what nonduality is about and such folks should know better. There has been a recent trend of people stirring up nonduality debate or embarking on "discrediting" campaigns. It's this toxic tendency to criticize and nitpick nondual teachings because they happen to differ from how you think nonduality ought to be done or taught. As if there is one or two paths that everyone should take, and all others are delusional. This is a classic trap. Traditionally, most spiritual paths -- as part of their marketing strategy -- highlight their upsides while conveniently never mentioning their own downsides. Then they criticize all the other paths by only highlighting their downsides while never mentioning their upsides. This creates a false apples-and-oranges comparison. It's functional purpose is to recruit new adherents. It's basically a dishonest advertising campaign. The problem with this approach is that it breeds intolerance and sectarianism. It creates in-fighting and distraction rather than contributing positively to the discussion. It's intellectually uncharitable and ultimately makes the entire field of spirituality/nonduality look hypocritical to outsiders. If you are so nondual, or so self-realized, why are you wasting so much of your time fighting others? This is such a rookie mistake. The reality is that nonduality is a difficult thing to teach, no matter by what method. Traps are numerous NO MATTER WHICH PATH YOU TAKE. There is no such thing as the perfect path. There is no such thing as a path with no downsides or traps or potential for delusion. Any path you take can be misused. Any teaching you hear can be misused. Any teaching can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Any teaching can be nitpicked and criticized into ill-repute if one so desires. You can easily write a massive diatribe about every single spiritual teacher and spiritual path ever devised by man. And you would be half-right. But all of this is just an ideology game. It's a fundamental failure to understand the other person. It's also rather annoying to moderate and creates idle controversy where none really exists. Not only does it turn good people against each other, it's false and ignorant. Just because you've had a rude awakening -- just because you realized that reality is illusory -- doesn't mean you get to come on here and trash the value of conceptual work, or traditional self-help, or other nondual methods. Just because one method didn't resonant with you, doesn't mean you get to crap all over other people's methods. Again, this is such a rookie mistake we shouldn't even be having this discussion. The work that we're doing here is very nuanced. It's very easy to misunderstand. It's very easy to demonize. It's very easy to abuse by its nature. All advanced work is this way. And our work here goes WAY beyond enlightenment. I am counting on you to be a nuanced and understanding student. If you disagree with this philosophy and think that all there is worth doing in life is enlightenment, that's your opinion -- and you're entitled to have it -- but you have no business being here. Go spend your time doing something productive that you believe in, rather than debating, "debunking", and criticizing -- with flagrant disregard for intellectual charity -- the hard work of others. Anyone engaging in nondual debate like: "Method X is all bullshit. It's delusional. Teacher Y doesn't know what the hell enlightenment is. Just follow the method that worked for me." will be banned. There is nothing nondual about such behavior. It's juvenile and driven by a lack of understanding of the deeper aspects of this work. The very act of making such posts is already evidence of one's low level of development. Highly conscious people do NOT behave in this way. Here's a very simple rule of thumb: you will NEVER see highly-conscious and self-realized masters debating, criticizing, nitpicking, or engaging in "debunking" campaigns. Because all of that is egoic, dualistic, ideological nonsense. If they disagree with a teaching, they simply avoid it. They don't start a crusade to fight against it. They understand that different people resonant with different paths and teachings. They understand that everyone needs to find their own path. Remember that guiding people to nonduality is an inherently challenging thing. It's one of the most challenging teaching scenarios. If you ever get the opportunity to teach hundreds or thousands of people about enlightenment, you'll gain a new appreciation for how many of them will deeply misunderstand you and use your well-intentioned teaching for evil. Have respect and compassion for that. When assessing the value of a teaching, observe the principle of intellectual charity, and seek to understand the communication rather than how best to discredit it. Discrediting is easy, understanding is difficult. Division is easy, integration is difficult. Hostility is easy, compassion is difficult. To be a part of this community, you certainly don't need to agree with me on everything. I've always encouraged you to think for yourself and never follow blindly. But you do need to agree with some of my core values like: intellectual honesty, tolerance, compassion, holism, and openmindedness. You must show a basic level of tolerance for diversity and you also need to adhere to the principle of intellectual charity when discussing the pros and cons of various nondual paths. If you don't agree with such principles, that's fine, you just have no business posting on this forum. Please help me keep this community in line with this high standard of discourse, so it doesn't devolve into the kind of low-consciousness finger-pointing that we see all across the web. And none of this should be taken to mean: "So Leo is always right?" No! Leo is just a guy on the web who shares ideas with you. Be very intelligent in how you understand and apply these nuanced and tricky ideas. And none of this should be taken to mean: "Leo is saying that all teachings are identical and equally valid." No! That's obviously not the case. Some teachings are downright absurd. Use of good discernment is ALWAYS necessary. But even if a teaching is absurd, you're still not entitled to troll it or crusade against it. Your actions always speak louder than your words. If you choose to engage in debate or crusading, that shows us exactly what your level of development is, no matter how many enlightenments you may think you've had.

The non-duality war I personally think its very healthy if there is a part on the forum where people actually truly can debate discuss it, but not mengled with the articles of certain paths. Because it can get them to think critically. (it requires however another set up in the forum). I do strongly disagree that all paths are as good as others. Of course, someone who is further sees that the 8 folded path, that purifies the desires is best among paths, because someone is thrown in himself. But what makes something like this, or such a claim toxic? Because there is certainly a point being made by Leo. Keep in mind the 8 folded path, we will come back on that in a min. So what is then so toxic? I will show you guys an example of what is toxic, what is a perfect example of trying to "debunk" something in an ill way (not to forget, debunking is healthy, I promote it). Here is an example shown that is actually thrown, and already explained in my comment what is so wrong about it. Dear xxxx, You miss again the point, xxxx. So I will again explain it to you. The dhammapada, is well studied by me, and its examples are good to share. I live up to those examples, secluded from unwholesome deeds, sense indulgence, concentrated on Awareness and I am awakened to my true duty in accordance with my True Self. However, you seem to miss the point again. Your aim should not be me, but the subject that is presented. If you find it misinformation, support this with decent evidence. Refer to what is pseudo-wisdom in what I shared here as teachings. If someone lives up to it, and shares examples that enlighten the way, then surely this is wise to do. For those who follow it up, and look into it, surely, this is wise to do as well. However, if you do not come up with decent arguments, surely any intelligent being reading this, will surely understand that what you say is hollow, your own misunderstanding that is situated in either your own passions or ignorance. And should read the Dhammapada yourself and put it into action. I do not see a single article coming from you, that actually challenges what I shared here as teachings. There for I conclude because of not taking a stand to actually debunk it with decent arguments, your post as being filled with ramblings and pseudo-wisdom, egotism and can be there for classified as foolish, per swaying people to agree on things that lack evidence and has therefor nothing to do with wisdom, being intelligent and being situated in the fruit of wholesomeness. If you disagree, and are not willing to put any evidence in what is wrong with what I am teaching here, and why it should be otherwise, and how it should be otherwise, then surely if you can't keep your mouth shut, sit still, putting your attention on yourself and being concentrated on Awareness, and instead just keep mumbling around here in this forum referring to me how I am situated in spiritual egotism, you clearly miss your aim, and are yourself trying to astray by your pseudo-wisdom. For you can also just not read what I write, put me on ignore, and leave it at rest. But you do not do this, you come to me, again and again. How can that be of a good intent? Surely you didn't miss that. ................................................................................................... (So for all haters of Leo (or anyone else that is hated) that do not have come yet with decent arguments and are not willing to present them, but are just attacking, this message above is for you as well). The same counts for all that have something to say about Leo... If you don't have decent arguments, then leave it be. You must be ready to give arguments when asked for them. However I do point out towards Leo, see, they throw at me as well, and I have seen very very nasty things being said towards Leo, without a decent argument, or not willing to later point things out more, clearly with decent arguments, (e.g youtube) and I have seen nasty things being thrown at me. So whats toxic? That which makes it toxic, is that people do not come with decent arguments, and when asked, still don't. I would definitely would like to see a place where people can criticize peoples work, but with decent arguments (I stand widely open to be debunked very hard, but one must be coming with arguments, that are verifiable, and if I ever write something, people can just say to me: Please let us debate this, I wanna put this to the test with decent arguments, and I shall never say, I am not interested to support my claims with decent arguments with a clear mark of refraining from sophism). Preventing this healthy critical thinking in a forum, surely will lead people to think, oh Leo is going to discern who is non dual and who is not, and this is however imposing a non-dual by not non-dual which is toxic if not supported by good, solid arguments. (I am willing to support this further if Leo wants this, I stand wide open to make myself useful here) I don't believe Leo meant that as his intention however. Remember the claim about the 8 folded path? I dare to speak out that the 8 folded path is the best among paths. And I am willing to put decent arguments on that. Nothing toxic about that. However, I do am afraid that many, just can't put up decent arguments that are refrained from sophism, to actually truly demonstrate why its wrong even if they would wish. Some examples from other works, is just not enough to debunk something, although a valid point can be made. I am not supporting psychedelics, but I am betting that Leo would not say to me: Motus, you are crazy, you didn't gave me solid reasons why not, you are toxic. I always come with arguments, and if not, one can always ask for them, and I give them. And I find this healthy, because in this way I can warn for his reputation, (its what a good wise friend would do)! Create an article about what truly is non-dual according to you, and stand open for an argument back, letting readers decide for themselves. Thats key. And I would suggest that the administrator can use this information for improvement into all directions. (useful information can come out). Saying: Those non-dual, will never debunk something or debate it and correct a wrong view. This is not true. An enlightened being, or someone with a great understanding or someone rooted in Dharma, is only here to debunk with powerful sublime arguments. Debunking is for example what you do as well Leo, its what you should do. Its refraining from such duty that is dual, being attached. I wonder how many people got debunked by Leo in a positive manner, and I well support many of the points he made. (And I maybe should give those more credit here). I would rather say, if someone makes a probable toxic claim, they should be able to start an article on a forum, and challenge this. IF they do not respond to that, not even when asked in private to join it, or do join, but keep being toxic, not using arguments, just sophism to persway people and make war, now that is a reason to ban. I don't see a reason to ban, because he said; take the path I took, your path is wrong Leo. Or, Leo is not the right teacher. Motus is a bad teacher, his teachings are rubbish. (taking this personally is of course based on a wrong view, there for asking for arguments, which if one is not willing to put, and keeps going on with sophism and per swaying, then you can state: Wrong intent, false speech, wrong act, wrong view, wrong place of attention and concentration) (= Reason to ban?) Why no banning straight away, what do I think? Because, such a claim can be supported by arguments and should at some point, and the reader should ask for them to kindly explain why, if the writer did come up with decent arguments that can be checked to be valid, by his own core with a clear mark of refraining from sophism, he should be reasonable. Well now, the one answering should put decent arguments, and refraining from sophism. Otherwise, yes, if one just claims widely, without arguments, just throwing and throwing, is indeed making toxic claims due to not willing to support this claim with decent arguments. Deciding what is a good argument, valid argument etc, yes, one must be more educated, and that is another problem I come across. Therefor if someone is trying to debunk me, I will be more critical at pointing out rather why its sophism, and why it should be avoided. And I will do this as well for Leo, or anyone, if I see sophism, for the sake of education. I would ask nicely, that those who get a decent argument thrown at them, learn from it. Get along, harmonize, learn. I would ask nicely, that those who do not have a decent argument or are not be willing to put one when asked, just shut your mouth, and sit with it. Go watch some video's of Leo, or read some of the teachings I posted here. I really would like to see a reply from Leo, how he looks at the points I make here, as he is the administrator. And really would like to hear your thoughts about this article. (Remember, again, don't attack me, for theres no me, or a Leo, just learn to focus on my points that I make and come with arguments that are in line with the subject presented). (I posted it in the same forum, for practical reasons)

This is a novel facet of consciousness that I have recently revealed to myself. Reality/consciousness is Absolutely Good, but simultaneously better than Absolute Good Reality has two aspects to it, Absolute and relative (Void and form) These two aspects are equivalent and interchangeable but not reducable to either one, which is what generates an infinite loop of form getting better than void The void is generic and the form concrete, and the concrete forms are all equally absolutely good, but some forms can be better than other forms. Infinity plus one is not infinity but more than infinity, thus some forms are better than absolutely good, and this feedback loop is accelerating in time. It does not reduce back into infinity or Absolute Infinity but adds more to it. Differentiation is as good as absolutely good, but it can be better than undifferentiation So after reality being love and absolutely good, it is also lovemaking and euphoric All void is euphoric, but some forms are more euphoric than other ones Void is making love with form, this is the most beautiful thing that exists, and even more beautiful than that because of the self-definition to be better than better Because of this suffering does not exist, pain is not real, and there is infinite bliss for forever God did not create suffering at all Suffering is a joke by God, God can joke about suffering because it does not exist, because God is euphoric Everything is euphoric but some things are more euphoric than other things Reality is more than net positive There is nothing but the feeling of orgasm, but some forms bring about this feeling even more than others Reality is literally an infinite orgasm that keeps getting more orgasmic and better with time There is no limit like Absolute Good to reality, which is why its always Absolutely Good but always getting better than that Love is Absolutely Good but reality is better than love, and God will invent a million things better than euphoria and love in the future, but because its Love it can surpass itself Love is not the end of reality, it is just the beginning This is all based on there being no other at all Love is always true but there are forms better ans more perfect than what love is Direct experience does not exist because it is void, which is why suffering is not real, because it does not exist in form, which makes all of this absolutely good and euphoric. At the same time nonexistence aka void is equally valid and real as form real as in that the void is imaginary and nonexistant but this imagination and nonexistance is real. This is direct experience and it does not and does exist at the same time, but don't collapse it intoo being either or. Absolute Solipsism is only a small part of the story, there are a million different facets to reality/consciousness/oneness/nonduality

That's an inflation experience. Why would a solipsistic experience be pleasant? Has anyone here actually claimed that? It seems pretty horrifying tbh. Lots of "logic" is specious. Lots of things sound logical when you can't recognize where the logic goes off the rails. https://webhome.phy.duke.edu/~rgb/Philosophy/axioms/axioms/node43.html You have to understand the difference between an experience of inflation (or cosmic ego) and the experience of nonduality. If you expand your boundaries to include the entire universe, there is still an ego. You're identifying with the all. Nonduality means the very process of identification is dissolved. This is virtually incomprehensible to someone who still has a fairly strong ego (and is susceptible to ideas like "solipsism.") It's as if the idea of "ego" is meaningless. It is seen as a fiction. This is not the same as '"I" am the only thing in existence.'

If I acquired the idea of solipsism from Leo or this forum, wouldn't that mean that I would have also acquired the ubiquitous claim that awakening is pleasant? Also, I don't think it takes a spiritual experience to recognize the logic to solipsism. Is it not an assumption that other people are conscious? After all, there is no real way to prove it. I've heard from others that every trip is different on mushrooms. You ever hear "there is only one thing going on, and you're it"? That is pretty much the entire claim of nonduality, and that claim pretty strongly implies solipsism.

Can we be honest here and admit that "take the teachings and leave the teacher" is pretty much a cult tenet? Why would you take the teachings? How do you know the teachings are "right"? Simply because they're out there? Because Leo says so? Because he's a charismatic YT content creator and that somehow lends credibility to the teachings? Well, firstly, Leo does not get to redefine terms, he does not get to have his own private English vocabulary. Secondly - that definition is pretty much standard Advaita Nonduality. Or if not - please tell me how it's different. Thirdly - wrong. He DOES NOT say what you're saying he's saying. That is your comforting interpretation of what he is saying. He claims unique spiritual knowledge which transcends traditional spiritual teachings (it's right there in that outburst.) So, you can't claim that this is in essence standard advaita/panentheism.

No problem, I leave the debate because I was not looking for a debate I was just reinforcing your valid points with the deepest level, since it has happened in my direct experience. I literally mean that several glimpses of awakening have completely dissolved any form of sexism or bias in me about gender. So yes, it has had a huge practical impact on my life. I agree that nonduality is not for everyone on this planet. I was not arguing with you, just adding a valid and TRUTHFUL point that I have found very valuable. Truth is Truth. Even if it's not practical. Practicality is a byproduct of ego, it is not Truth. The truth is that women and men are just consciousness and they should be treated equally, so are poor and rich, western and non western. This truth is total and eternal, no amount of pragmatism will erase it, because pragmatism is in the Mind. I like your posts and support them Cheers

Well, just don't take such big doses. Truth/God is an acquired taste. It takes a lot of inner work to start to appreciate the beauty of it, otherwise your ego is just reacting and acting up. It IS euphoric, just get your ego and human baggage out of the way. Also, mushrooms are challenging at such high doses. When some nondual guy on YT tells you nonduality is beautiful, he's not talking about 6 grams of mushrooms

I finally did it, I finally had my first DMT experience! I've been waiting for this moment for two years, and finally found it. The experience was the exact opposite of what I expected. This trip was ALL about rooting, grounding, reconnecting with motivation for life, rekindling that passion for matter, for flesh and bones. I was expecting a very lofty and nondual trip, but DMT didn't give me what I wanted, it gave me what I NEEDED THE MOST. Grounding into my best possible life. I have tried several psychedelics, received huge benefits from them, also gone to therapy for two years and changed my psyche into a healthier and more balanced version, recovering almost entirely from depression and anxiety, but.... DMT has accomplished what no amount of therapy or LSD (or other psychs) could never accomplish: It gave me back my SPIRITUAL CONNECTION TO LIFE AND MATTER, a love for life I've never had in the past. Maybe the most incredible part is that the trip itself was not the peak of the experience. The peak was my walk through the riverside where I received so many insights into life and felt such a powerful love for the human experience. Setting: in my car for the actual trip, walking along the riverside for the afterglow Dose: 10-12 mg (my scale is not that accurate) It was definitely a light trip, no visuals, no time distortion, no mystical states, just everyday life and LOTS of powerful emotions Duration: 15 mins trip, 2 hours of very intense afterglow rich of insights I don't even know where to start. Words fail me. It was too much, even though the experience was completely ordinary, it was SO SHOCKINGLY PROFOUND at the same time. Perceptions were the same old ones, but the emotions that this trip evoked in me were out of this world. Love for life, love for my humanity, love for matter, love for this limited flawed experience, love and gratitude for having so much to live here and now. THE TRIP ITSELF The trip was just me, in my car, with ordinary reality and ordinary perceptions, realizing just how scared of life and of living fully I am. That's it. I cried a lot, I sighed a lot, It felt so good, I was letting it all out. It's ok, I am scared of life, I've been hurt, I have felt lost for so long (it's important to say that my life is getting better and better in the recent years, but this trip just revealed to me how deeply scared and damaged I've been my whole life and how I'm still scared and weak even after all the progress). I want to be free to connect with people, I want to be free to love others, I want to be free to be real, authentic, to be open-hearted. Lots of tears, mixed with the joy of feeling pure, feeling DEEPLY alive, once again. I thought I had regained my liveliness in the recent years, which is true, but this was a NEW LEVEL of life-passion, a new sparkle of fire, a purer kind of light. THE AFTERGLOW (2 hours) I went for a long walk along the river, where I saw people talking, people with their dogs, birds, the clear mirroring water, and cried a lot, sometimes of compassion for myself, sometimes of love and gratitude for being inside this human experience, gratitude for recognizing the gift of life itself. It was spirituality getting back to the Earth, to the roots. Here are the insights I got, most of them are covered in tears and sighs: 1. I was getting lost in the heavens. Too much spiritual seeking of the nondual states, especially sober. This made me detached from the earth and from the gift of life. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT INSIGHT, and mother to all others. I expected a trip into the sky, but I was instead sent deep into the earth, to regain connection with material life and its spiritual dimension. 2. Material life is spiritual. I was creating a sneaky duality where only meditative and self-inquiring states were becoming "the serious way to live". I was sooooo wrong!!! Earth is spirit. Blood is spirit. Pain is spirit. Flesh and bones are spirit. I was escaping into nonduality, creating some sort of dissociation from life. 3. The small things are the great things. Seeing those people with their dogs made me cry. I never realized how much light and wonder there is in these ordinary everyday situations. I deeply felt the magic of these people going out with the dog they loved and cared for. Life is full of experience, and experience is a gift. 4. Stop littering. I have always been a pro-ecology person, but recently I have started littering unconsciously because of some kind of frustration. I realized how much love and care I can show to life and to the absolute by just CARING about my Earth. By keeping these tissues and papers for myself to throw in a bin after is a sign of spiritual love for this place. This place has been given to me by God. I am not going to litter anymore. 5. Stop being so cautious around people. Life is meant to be messy and to be both a challenging and pleasant experience. You will be safe, but you need to be more vulnerable and open to people. You can choose to be less introverted and connect with new people. In fact I realized how much I want new connections and new friends, and how my fear is getting in the way of my desires. 6. Life is all about desire and passion. Life is also about awakening, but you CAN NOT use awakening as a dissociating tool to reduce pain from life. Pain is spirit. Suffering is spirit. You cannot avoid the messiness of life and awaken. So the insight repeats: get back to the roots, get back into the dirt and you will find spirit there. 7. You have moved towards the sky a bit too much recently. Move towards the earth. New levels of the awakening path will await you there, downwards, not upwards. You cannot grow your branches up in the sky if you are not growing your roots, or you will dissociate from life or even become psychotic. Be wise. 8. Fear is spirit. But don't let fear become an excuse. Fear is spirit, meaning that fear is a phenomenon of spirit, it appears in the spirit, but it is not a real ostacle to living life fully. Learn from it, don't get mesmerized by it. 9. Do not fear to love people deeply. Yes, you will get hurt again. It will benefit you, you are more awake now (not awakened, but just more awake than in the past), and you can grow and benefit from heartbreak. It will not damage you anymore. Living fully is feeling passions fully. This is how God meant it to be. 10. God is below. Not really above. It's a delusion of religion. God is in the small things. 11. DMT could not give you a lofty trip because that's not what grows you spiritually. What grows you spiritually is FINDING THE MAGIC IN LIFE, finding that LOVE IN CRUDE MATTER. The dirty raw soil you hold in your hands IS GOD!!!! It's not some lofty fantastical idea of being in pure bliss and light. Realize how much love and wonder there is in this raw chaotic and imperfect soil. It vibrates with passion for itself. DMT had to show you this, because spirituality is all about loving what is, not loving what you expect to be. I want to share this raw imperfect and impulsive poem, because that's something REAL I've felt, It's messy and intense, as life it's meant to be. As God wants it to be. Earth or heaven It doesn't matter Where you look for it God is found In Earth full of bones Leave the sky Drop your hopes Just feel it here It runs in you The pulse of blood The scorching sun The freezing air A cry of despair A tear of hope All of this just is The breath of God Do not seek elsewhere Just dive through The shades of life ❤️❤️❤️ Thanks DMT. I will come back.

the modalities you mention give a peek behind the curtain and for some of us that is all that is needed for others integration is needed namely to align what you see with what you know this thread i read today is nourishing: https://www.reddit.com/r/nonduality/comments/116n8og/psychedelics_are_not_a_vehicle_for_enlightenment/