Postmodernism

[Parallax Mind]

Thanks for bringing up postmodernism and clearing up some of the confusion around it @Leo Gura

As far as I can tell modern Western society is fully entrenched in postmodernism (and neo liberalism too and on all sides of the political spectrum). 

Here's my question:  postmodernism is more aligned with the Truth than modernism? Postmodernism states that there is no right way to do art for example. This is way more aligned with universal truth right? 

Also I know Leo is post-everything and transhuman. But he is still a product of post-modernism since in a modern or classical society people like him wouldn't be allowed to speak? Or did I mistake something 

Thanks in advance for your replies. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Parallax Mind

[Sucuk Ekmek]

37 minutes ago, Parallax Mind said:

Thanks for bringing up yet another interesting topic about postmodernism and clearing up some of the confusion around it @Leo Gura

Here's my question:  postmodernism is more aligned with the Truth than modernism? Postmodernism states that there is no right way to do art for example. This is way more aligned with universal truth right? 

According to postmodernism there is no grand narrative.

My take is; well nice try that is a grand narrative. 

From my perspective there are ways to do art and for good reasons, like taking a poop.  It's a very strict art. There are not many different ways to do it, plus it's for your benefit and not only that you also have an idea about how others should poop as well. If you noticed there are many non postmodernist universal truths about goddamn public toilets. 

[Leo Gura]

What post-modernism gets right is that reality is deeply perspectival and there are way more valid perspectives than just one.

What post-modernism gets wrong is that humans can and must agree on some core facts, truths, and values. Just because there are many perspectives does not mean all these persepctives are equally truthful and good. Some are more deluded than others. Flat Earthers have a worse persepective than Round Earthers, and this is not merely an opinion.

Edited November 28, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Parallax Mind]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What post-modernism gets right is that reality is deeply perspectival and there are way more valid perspectives than just one.

What post-modernism gets wrong is that humans can and must agree on some core facts, truths, and values. Just because there are many perspectives does not mean all these persepctives are equally truthful and good. Some are more deluded than others. Flat Earthers have a worse persepective than Round Earthers, and this is not merely an opinion.

I see, really fascinating. Thanks! 

[UnbornTao]

Also agreements that facilitate co-existence in our culture. There are effective and empowering things to do both as individuals and as a group. Facts of experience, such as basic principles that are real. Gravity might be relative and not a universal phenomena, but you better not jump from a rooftop and pretend to fly (you can delude yourself you're flying just before hitting the floor).   Lying has consequences, telling the truth, keeping one's word too, etc.

Also there're more intelligent strategies for our collective survival and thriving.

Slap a post-modernist in the face -- or anyone lost in intellect -- and ask him whether the slap was relative or not.

This is for the sake of the argument, don't go around slapping people. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by UnbornTao

[bebotalk]

What in life is absolute? Do humans even have the capacity to conceive of such? It's arrogant to suggest anything is absolute. 

[Leo Gura]

8 hours ago, bebotalk said:

What in life is absolute? Do humans even have the capacity to conceive of such? It's arrogant to suggest anything is absolute. 

Is the Earth round or not?

[Bandman]

@Leo Gura In a completely absolute sense though, does that mean i am actually imagining the earth being round, even though I'm not directly aware of it? would a flat earther be imagining that the earth is flat on a human level, but still imagining in the background that the earth is round from a God level? that in this way, God imagines the experience of a deluded flat earther. however in the absolute sense both the flat earth and round earth are both completely imaginary, since a "wrong belief" and "qualia of an actual round earth" are both equally imaginary in the eyes of the absolute. Do you agree with my analysis here?

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Bandman said:

however in the absolute sense both the flat earth and round earth are both completely imaginary,

You are conflating different orders of imagination.

Dogs and unicorns are both imaginary, but unicorns are more imaginary.

[Schizophonia]

On 28/11/2023 at 6:58 PM, Leo Gura said:

What post-modernism gets right is that reality is deeply perspectival and there are way more valid perspectives than just one.

What post-modernism gets wrong is that humans can and must agree on some core facts, truths, and values. Just because there are many perspectives does not mean all these persepctives are equally truthful and good. Some are more deluded than others. Flat Earthers have a worse persepective than Round Earthers, and this is not merely an opinion.

So the postmodern paradigm is further from God, from the truth.

Deep down, conservatives intuitively fear that society gets lost in additional layers of concepts.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

So the postmodern paradigm is further from God, from the truth.

No. In some sense it is closer to God.

[Rafael Thundercat]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Is the Earth round or not?

Is Absolutely Roundlative

[Danioover9000]

@Parallax Mind

On 2023-11-28 at 0:38 PM, Parallax Mind said:

Thanks for bringing up postmodernism and clearing up some of the confusion around it @Leo Gura

As far as I can tell modern Western society is fully entrenched in postmodernism (and neo liberalism too and on all sides of the political spectrum). 

Here's my question:  postmodernism is more aligned with the Truth than modernism? Postmodernism states that there is no right way to do art for example. This is way more aligned with universal truth right? 

Also I know Leo is post-everything and transhuman. But he is still a product of post-modernism since in a modern or classical society people like him wouldn't be allowed to speak? Or did I mistake something 

Thanks in advance for your replies. 

   I wouldn't say modern western societies are 'fully' entrenched in postmodernism, even though most westernized countries have egalitarianism, feminism, humanism, secularism, capitalism, neoliberalism, a democracy bias, modernism, some post modernism as ideological proliferates. There's still some areas of westernized countries that have a Republican, and religious/theocratic way of life.

   Whatever truth is is based on many factors like Stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing/traits, ego development, Integral Theory's other lines of development, ideological beliefs indoctrinated by culture and family upbringing, and the information ecology one consumes from mainstream media, alternative sources, papers, videos, radio, TV, social media nowadays, and many more that influences consensus opinions. Discerning from what I've said truth has a moral subjectivist and relativistic view to it, however we cannot deny and downplay the religious dogmatic absolutist view, the scientific materialistic view, and the moral subjectivist views on what truth is.

   I partly agree with what Leo says of postmodernism's strengths but also weaknesses, as different biases and preferences will use postmodernist thinking to suit their political agendas and ideological biases. For example, a person with LGBTQ biases or Transgenderism bias will use that subjectivity and relativism to bolster their positions, yet will deny the moral objectivist view that there is a woman, and there is a man defined by their sex biology and sexual characteristics in their body, and that heterosexuality is mostly why we've survived as a species, as heterosexuality is not a reproductive dead end for the most part, but other sexual orientations mostly are sexual reproductive dead ends for human flourishing. An example of proper use of postmodernism is in conjunction with psychoanalysis, other therapy modals like gestalt therapy, and deconstruction of limiting beliefs systems with self help techniques, and even lays the groundwork for a better self image if one knows how to self construct to a better self image. improper usage and corruption of postmodernism is to more immature stage greens in bolstering their ideology at the cost of stage orange/blue societies falling apart from delusion, like muddying distinctions between gender dysphoria versus transgenderism ideology, and then some who go too early into conversion therapy and do physical alterations to their sex biology, some do regret the changes later on in life which is one example of postmodernism uased badly.

[Danioover9000]

@Schizophonia

4 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

So the postmodern paradigm is further from God, from the truth.

Deep down, conservatives intuitively fear that society gets lost in additional layers of concepts.

   Of course, because the world and western societies are being more humanist and secularist, embracing feminism and egalitarianism, as well as capitalism and neoliberalism, more so than conservativism, and theocratic/religious orthodoxy, and a smaller limited democracy, and even a modern patriarchy. The fallout of this is declining birthrates in secularist countries, high divorce rates from no fault divorce, increasing struggle with committment to long term relationships, and moral degradation of stage blue/orange societies as people become more and more materialist and hyper individualism orientated.

  God is actually closer to post modernism as God has the following features:

Omnipotence. All powerful.

Omniscience. All knowing.

Omniferous. Producing/consisting of all kinds of things.

Omnipresent. All present, or present everywhere, in all existence.

Omnificent. Creating all things.

Omnigenous. Of all kinds/varieties.

   And simultaneously, there's the GOD HEAD, or the absolute that underpins all the other forms. Hence why GOD is equivalent to all, to existence, to everything, and to infinity. Of course, atheists like to think god's merely an old guy in the clouds, and belief in the non-belief of the almighty, and belief in a lack of god's existence, yet they're kidding themselves. That's like believing that Santa Claus isn't real, doesn't exist, yet Santa Calus is real and does exist, just not as you imagine or think Santa Claus to be. Both atheists, and theists to some extent, are both inaccurate and wrong in defining what god is, because one side deeply and dogmatically believes in a caricature of god, and the other is deeply in denial of god's existence because that's like admitting you were wrong about religions. Atheists hate losing to theists, and theists losing to atheists is a sin. 

[Danioover9000]

   Very interesting how there's god slaying even in JRPGs:

 

[DocWatts]

David Foster Wallace on postmodernism:

[bebotalk]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Is the Earth round or not?

By our scientific metrics, yes. But science relies on our senses, which are limited. We can't sense things that other species can, such as infra-red, or sound at a specific dB level or distance. Our sense of smell is inferior to dogs, cats, and many other mammals. 

So what is "fact" is limited to our miniscule perception of the universe. Postmodernism might be cringe in its fullest sense, but it's valid in the sense it shows that absolutes are limited and we cannot be sure of what truly is absolute.