New War In Israel / Gaza

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

The moment you take control of the situation to stop this bullshit, they hate you. Western liberals in a nut shell. 

They take their privilege of living in a democracy totally for granted. They have too much free time to fantasize on the bad guy who represents their lower stages values they subconsciously crave and symphatize with him unproportionally. They can only learn in the hard way.

Edited March 13 by Nivsch

[zazen]

The reason why Israel/Palestine are so popular compared to other world conflicts (Yemen, Sudan) come down to the stakes, sacredness, story, distinctness and time.

The stakes of the players involved or who could potentially get involved are higher (Iran) leading to a regional war with global ripple effects due to being in a geopolitically strategic region full of resources the world depends on (the global economy hinges upon and is sensitive to energy prices)

The land is sacred to the abrahamic faiths which make up over half the world’s population. Large civilisational stories are clashing and weaving their prophecies into existence hastening their depiction of end times and return of prophets.

The story resonates along lines that many people relate with historically - racism, colonialism and the oppressor/oppressed frame which is taken to an extreme extent these days ie the disdain for power or hierarchy as bad. It’s not that power or who holds it is uniquely bad but the manner of how it’s used or wielded.

When distinctly different groups fight it’s more starkly visible compared to the murkiness of civil unrest which from the outside isn’t as clear and as is seen as internal conflict not to get involved in. 

The time the cause of the Palestinians has had to build over decades and soak into the psyche has been decades. Many global humanitarian groups, activists and journalists have established networks who’ve been covering it for a while. This inconvenient fact is overlooked by ultra Zionists as it goes against the narrative that October 7th started in a vacuum. Of course they’d rather emphasise much older times thousands of years back and make ancient claims as justification to the land.

Israel is the Wests creation and America’s baby. As the West control a lot of the global narrative of course the focus will be on what’s occurring there. A point unique to Gaza is they have no where to flee and are caged into a small area where as in other places civilians can move to remote parts of their country where no conflict takes place.
 

That this conflict is live-streamed and one of the parties involved dehumanise, mock and uploads tik toks only further infuriates the world.

Edited March 13 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen This is the most triggering conflict to the average reader around the world because this is the most tangible example of so different and far from each other values systems clash.

Edited March 13 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

This weekend Pro-Palestines were loudly protesting in front of the opening of the Dutch Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam. Like seriously have some respect for this very solemn occasion honoring murdered countrymen, survivors and the history - so crucial to your civilization and society.

It was opened in the presence of the Prime Minister, the King and the President of Israel which of course has drawn the demonstrations. btw the president of Israel is a very moderate and gentle person, making the protest all the more cringe-worthy and more like a middle finger to everything we stand for as an honorable self-respecting society. 

Edited March 13 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Vrubel Gantz is also very moderate and I hope he will replace Bibi. He has the best chance right now and has a great support from the Israelis.

Edited March 13 by Nivsch

[zazen]

@Vrubel @Nivsch

Then there’s Isaac Herzog, the Israeli president, who declared: “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true.” No demarcation between militants and civilians exists here. Yoav Gallant, the minister of defence, was a repeat offender. On 9 October, in an unashamed commitment to collective punishment, he declared Israel was imposing a “complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” he said. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

''It always starts with words. Genocide is largely remembered for its depraved acts, but it is incubated in language. Words can cast dark spells on a population, stirring hatred in those who otherwise see themselves as moderate, humane, normal.''

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/13/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes

Besides that, it is disrespectful to protest outside a new Holocaust museum. Holocaust memorials shouldn't just signify the crime of crimes humans are capable of and once committed, but that they also shouldn't come close to anything of the like in present day.

Edited March 13 by zazen

[Nivsch]

@zazen Ok if you want to judge a nation 5 minutes after it got the worst trauma since its establishment. Every sane person would react this way. Presidents are still human beings.

Edited March 13 by Nivsch

[zazen]

@Nivsch  Bro it's human to react, but inhumane to react disproportionately. A leader has responsibility to be careful with his words because they hold weight and ring in the ears of the nation. It isn't only his speech but the actions of the state following it. The world gave 5 minutes of solace to Israel and a green light to address the issue but its been 5 months now and the judgment being made world wide is that Israel has gone too far.

Israel's claim that their approach is security-centric doesn't hold up. If a house or shop gets robbed and the people in it are massacred in the process, fortifying security means installing locks, cameras and security guards - security is about being defensive and not going on the offensive. Justice involves going after the violent perpetrators, not destroying, blockading and starving the entire town in pursuit of them and claiming every innocent life lost as collateral damage or a human shield.

Whilst clash of values is a factor to why Israel/Palestine is a popular topic, a larger factor is the universal ethics and lessons learned from the horrors of the Holocaust that were crystallized into international law to prevent anything similar happening again or anything even on the lower end of the spectrum of Genocide such as ethnic cleansing which is a subset of it. 

Ideology shouldn't trump humanity. People can accept Zionism if it means statehood and safety for Jewish people but not ultra-Zionism if it means a Jewish ethno-state at the expense of indigenous people. Ultra-Zionists hijack the suffering of the Holocaust for their own ends. They nationalise and racialise Judaism and Islamists globalize Islam.

Edited March 13 by zazen

[Vrubel]

28 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Vrubel @Nivsch

Then there’s Isaac Herzog, the Israeli president, who declared: “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible. It’s not true this rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true.” No demarcation between militants and civilians exists here. Yoav Gallant, the minister of defence, was a repeat offender. On 9 October, in an unashamed commitment to collective punishment, he declared Israel was imposing a “complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” he said. “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly.”

''It always starts with words. Genocide is largely remembered for its depraved acts, but it is incubated in language. Words can cast dark spells on a population, stirring hatred in those who otherwise see themselves as moderate, humane, normal.''

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/13/israel-hamas-gaza-war-crimes

Besides that, it is disrespectful to protest outside a new Holocaust museum. Holocaust memorials shouldn't just signify the crime of crimes humans are capable of and once committed, but that they also shouldn't come close to anything of the like in present day.

I could see a comment like this coming from miles away. Again, I must ask you to see things not only through your pre-made narrative but also more fairly as they are in the reality beyond your narrative. Dutch tv did a really good interview with him when he visited, it's not yet freely available because it was so recent but he made perfect sense explaining himself (and Israel). Anybody who knows anything about him knows he is a very reasonable, moderate and peace-oriented man.

 

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@Vrubel Gantz is also very moderate and I hope he will replace Bibi. He has the best chance right now and has a great support from the Israelis.

Yes, anybody who thinks that Gantz or Herzog are some kind of extremist and don't care for peace is perversely delusional and tells me more about them. 

Edited March 13 by Vrubel

[Vrubel]

@zazen Found the interview with Herzog: https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/video/2512299-het-volledige-gesprek-met-president-herzog-van-israel-over-de-oorlog

You can watch with an open mind and judge for yourself. It's in English, sorry for the annoying commercials at the beginning. 

Edited March 13 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@zazen Of course you will react dis-proportionally after trauma.

[Nivsch]

@zazen Even if the war was 100% pure the collateral damage was super high anyway. I do agree that there is an extra material damage that isn't necessary to eliminate hamas and I can't negate some sort of (material) collective punishment.

But this is still an hypocricy. Israel did huge efforts for 18 years during its surgical 10 operations in Gaza.

The civilian population also hold some responsibility and part of them are not really entirely seperated from hamas (but the human target has to be and actually is of course only hamas), what doesn't justify the amount of damage and I think a more moderate governemt would lessen the damage.

But even with all the good intentions, Gaza would have been mostly destroyed as an inevitable outcome of destroying its terror organization.

Edited March 13 by Nivsch

[_Archangel_]

13 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

US was pretty much invested in the Saudi conflict. They were backing saudi like they are doing Israel right now, even though Biden pulled out of it in 2021. Still they didn't get any large flack for it. 

@bobby_2021    I meant Us as "us", we, the collective. Not America.
As i wrote earlier, the reason for the magnitude of the Palestinian conflict are to be found in the split and support to either one of the two sides involved.

13 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

So you do agree that the media & public outcry about Israel has to do with the state of political division within your own country rather than the humanitarian crisis that's actually going on in gaza. 

Media is using the humanitarian crisis for political gain. That's even more despicable. 

Anti-semitism is a factor, but most decent poeple criticise Israel based on their handling of the situation in Gaza and in the West Bank.
Their operation and intentions are  highly criticizable, independently of Ethnicity and Religion.
And this is a position shared by many moderate Jewes and Israeli citizens.

Edited March 13 by _Archangel_

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

9 hours ago, zazen said:

@Nivsch  Bro it's human to react, but inhumane to react disproportionately. A leader has responsibility to be careful with his words because they hold weight and ring in the ears of the nation. It isn't only his speech but the actions of the state following it. The world gave 5 minutes of solace to Israel and a green light to address the issue but its been 5 months now and the judgment being made world wide is that Israel has gone too far.

Israel's claim that their approach is security-centric doesn't hold up. If a house or shop gets robbed and the people in it are massacred in the process, fortifying security means installing locks, cameras and security guards - security is about being defensive and not going on the offensive. Justice involves going after the violent perpetrators, not destroying, blockading and starving the entire town in pursuit of them and claiming every innocent life lost as collateral damage or a human shield.

Whilst clash of values is a factor to why Israel/Palestine is a popular topic, a larger factor is the universal ethics and lessons learned from the horrors of the Holocaust that were crystallized into international law to prevent anything similar happening again or anything even on the lower end of the spectrum of Genocide such as ethnic cleansing which is a subset of it. 

Ideology shouldn't trump humanity. People can accept Zionism if it means statehood and safety for Jewish people but not ultra-Zionism if it means a Jewish ethno-state at the expense of indigenous people. Ultra-Zionists hijack the suffering of the Holocaust for their own ends. They nationalise and racialise Judaism and Islamists globalize Islam.

   I definitely agree. It takes Sweden's level of rationality and systems thinking to remain calm and respond in proportion.

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

This weekend Pro-Palestines were loudly protesting in front of the opening of the Dutch Holocaust Museum in Amsterdam. Like seriously have some respect for this very solemn occasion honoring murdered countrymen, survivors and the history - so crucial to your civilization and society.

It was opened in the presence of the Prime Minister, the King and the President of Israel which of course has drawn the demonstrations. btw the president of Israel is a very moderate and gentle person, making the protest all the more cringe-worthy and more like a middle finger to everything we stand for as an honorable self-respecting society. 

   Equally tell the pro Israeli protesters and Zionists and IDF to stop blocking food aids trucks delivering food and water to starving Gazans then.

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   Equally tell the pro Israeli protesters and Zionists and IDF to stop blocking food aids trucks delivering food and water to starving Gazans then.

I just had a phone call with the Israeli government to do more aid and they listened.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/israel-will-try-to-flood-gaza-with-aid-from-multiple-entry-points-says-idf-spokesman/

[Merkabah Star]

8 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   Equally tell the pro Israeli protesters and Zionists and IDF to stop blocking food aids trucks delivering food and water to starving Gazans then.

The blocking and denial of humanitarian aid is a war crime. They should all be arrested. If they were Palestinian they would be shot dead by snipers. 

[Twentyfirst]

On 3/10/2024 at 5:21 PM, ArcticGong said:

Hasn’t anyone in this entire thread made the case that countries are social construct and belongs to nobody? Then I’ll repeat it. No country belongs to nobody absolutely speaking. But relatively speaking, Arabs conquered and renamed their territories like Egypt to Misr, Jordan to Urdunia, Syria to Shams. If you want a fair playing field, let’s sit down and renegotiated the entire Middle East so every minority gets a piece, if fairness is the concern. European Jews took back a land which had sentimental value to them. Which seems unfair, but plenty injustice goes on there. Orthodox people keep longing for reclaiming Constantinople, but they aren’t waging a holy crusade to make it happen. The world is unfair, relatively speaking. Playing the victim while trying to dictate terms is really overplaying one’s hand. Lastly, if human life was a priority for Arabs, Palestinians Muslims would be settled at a safe place. Wonder why Christian’s from the levant have had several waves of exoduses to Latin America? Because it is dangerous being a minority in the Middle East.  

Burn your passport. Put your money where your mouth is 

[Nivsch]

As long as your friends and family are held hostages with magnitudes of suffering above anyone else then everything is far more complicated.

Edited March 14 by Nivsch